Forum: Air Power

Israel’s defence ministry has issued a request for information for a new fleet of aircraft to replace its ageng CM170 Zukit (Fouga Magister) jet trainers under a private finance initiative (PFI) agreement. The Israeli air force has for several years been looking to replace its locally built CM170s, but has failed to make a selection despite flight testing several platforms.

Potential candidates for the new requirement are believed to include the Boeing/BAE Systems T-45 Goshawk, Northrop Grumman T-38 Talon and the Korea Aerospace Industries/Lockheed Martin T-50 Golden Eagle. Local suppliers Elbit Systems and Israel Aircraft Industries also plan to compete, with the latter promoting the Javelin trainer now in development with the USA’s Advanced Technologies Group. Bidders are to submit their proposals by February.

The deal will expand Israel’s current use of PFI training systems, which includes a 10-year air force deal with Elbit’s Cyclone Aviation subsidiary to operate 27 Grob 120A basic trainers.

http://www.flightinternational.com/Arti ... iners.html

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I was wondering why Israel would want a navalised Hawk over one of the newer LIFT ones operated by the RAAF and NFTS when the penny dropped.

So, how much do you think that the 'Goshawk' offered to Israel will be less navalised and more, say, Hawk ("EU embargo? What embargo? This is 100% US yessiree. It just has a high % of UK components") Wink

Still, be interesting to see how this turns out being as its the first battle between the Hawk and one if it's new competitors (T-50). The Hawk will be a good replacement for the Magister but the T-50 offers supersonic performance (may or may not be a requirement - its the only reasonI can think for requesting info on the T-38 ) and a better secondary A/G capability.

Hmm, still think a Hawk variant would win... many air forces don't like to train their pilots un-necessarily in supersonic flight if they operate supersonic and subsonic jet aircraft. Although, the Hawk can go supersonic in a shallow dive (albeit at 45,000ft) so if needbe it can.

Also the Hawk can go 9g+ and until the Typhoon entered service with the RAF it was the only aircraft we had that could do 9g... and we'd been operating it since the 70's!!! Compared to the T-50 having an upper limit of 8g.

Recently the Mako, a "stealth" supersonic trainer similar to the T-50 has competed against the Hawk LIFT variants citing the same reasons the T-50 does and has lost to the Hawk on each ocassion.

Andy Smile

why would they consider the T-38 when it is such an old airframe? Aren't the newest airframes in USAF service from the early 70s? I cannot see any new airframes being built, and I would not understand a country such as Israel buying such old second hand airframes from the US boneyards.

Can't argue against the Hawk Boff (certainly want it to win - more work for our industry even if a Goshawk would suggest some US workshare).

Certainly the airframe is still agile and the aerodynamic and avionic (got to love the new LIFT glass cockpit and onboard simulators) tweaks have kept it current.

My only concern is that Israel likes its daylight CAS aircarft and Hawk can't compete really in this secondry role (mainly in terms of payload).

If they want a pure LIFT then yeah, Hawk for the win and long may it stay that way!

and at KPDiamond - no idea. They don't have F-5 so there is no existing infrastructure and the aircraft has got to be getting more difficult and costly to keep up with numbers slowly diminishing. Plus its an older dial based cockpit unless they have a plan to upgrade 'em with glass.

Forum: Air Power

Israel kicks off search to replace jet trainers