Forum: Program and politics

Driver wrote:

Roscoe wrote:

Several points.

(1) The weapon of choice in the future will be the small diameter bomb and the JSF is optimized for that. So don't worry about the number of JDAMs it can carry (besides I believe the limit is for internal carriage only...).

(2) The JSF will kick the Vipers A--! And the Raptor will in turn bury the JSF. Anyone who thinks the JSF will in any way come close to the F-22 in capability is in for a rude surprise. As much as people will hate this, "trust me." End of story.

(3) Any more RCS work on the Viper is a total waste of $$ if you have a JSF available. And if you don't, then you're prpbably not on our "top-o-the-line" Viper sales call list either...

You are forgetting in point 2 that most combat is done on BVR terms these days and on those terms the F-22 raptor and the F-35 whatever dont differ much or nothing at all. On BVR terms The F-35 might even prevail over the raptor seeing that the F-35 will have FAR!!!! supperior sensors and avionics.... on Close combat I agree we the Raptor will win but close combat is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

And another thing I wouldnt buy the raptor even if we had enough money for 70000 of em. Instead of 70000 F-35's, and no every1's thinking Huh he's nuts well im not think it threw. The F-22 was built on the concept of the cold war everythings visible the F-35 is built on the concept of today: LOTS of sensors to find small pockets of enemys see the F-22 Raptor is great but we dont have any enemys left who have good planes.. the F-15C suffices in that view. While we do have harsh ground wars going on and thats where the F-35 will prevail over ALL by an Extreme distance.

And oh yea you say well we have the aim-9x with the JSF so even if the turn radius of an F-16 is better then the F-35's the F-35 will win cause of that. WRONG i dont know about the usa But we as Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Norway and denmark have upgraded our f-16s to MLU standards and are now on M3 (block 60 standard) and M4 will be coming soon (Block 62 standard Yes that is comming trust me) and those fly with Aim-9X.

And about supercruise. No the JSF will not have that. Mach 1.8 will be it's probable max speed for now. They may put in a better engine later just like they did with the f-16's.

Great. 'nother person that thinks we'll be fighting camel-riding towel heads for the rest of enternity. Got news for you. China is just around the corner and it's not going to be fielding a bunch of imbecils with explosives strapped to them but an air force with the best aircraft their economy can buy. For thet you need the F-22. Period.

F-16.net Sponsor

And now this Smile

as i sayed before Dogfighting is a thing of the past and since f-35 is same or even better at BVR then F-22 why spend hundreds of millions while you can get the same thing with tens of millions. And dont say a dogfights bound to happen cause u know the Aim-9X vs J-11 F-35 whipes the J-11 of the map.

The F-22 is another symbol of US stupidity take the F-117 Costs alot more then the F-35 while the F-35 is way better. And the B-2 costs billions and it can destroy Edwards sized Af bases. While 2 Tornados with special bomb pods can destroy the same ammount and they can fight off enemy jets being sent after it. and they can run when found (remember that stealthy aint invisible but just harder to find) and The f-22 costs 100's of millions while you can get the same job done with 10's of millions.

And tell ya what imagine a radar from 1979 on the practice range called vliehors, and there are f-117's comin and 10 minutes before they're inrange all of a sudden they see 2 specks on the radar screen. Then they know hey its them they just focus the radar on that area and the whole time they where there they were seen on radar. And this is the trewth proving Stealth isnt perfect and something you need to rely on fully you always need selfdefence.

Driver wrote

"Not 100% accurate the C model will have alarger win span not the B Model and yes the bay is smaller so say bye bye to many A model weapons and yes there is no room for a cannon. Range is drasticly decreased and weight increased, thus making manuverability go down and speed too. overall i dont see the use for the b-model except for the Royal navy, cause the brits carriers are too short to do conventional take of and landings on. and maybe for us (the dutch) seeing that we have a huge amphib assault vessle it should be able to carry a few".

Thanks for the correction on the larger wing on "C" model, not "B" model....
I have to tell you not to forget that the USMC will use the "B" stovl model as well as the RN and the RAF. The Royal navy`s new Queen Elizabeth class carriers at 50 to 60,000 tons will have the provision to fit EM catapults, they can comfotably house "C" model variants. Though I doubt the RN will trade in its "B" models for the USN "C" models. Isreal is also interested in the "B" model. There are 9 international partners in the program, including your country.

I think the "B" will have more export usage than you might believe.

Yes i think your right but in my opinion the A and C moddle are suppirior over the B moddle, but that is in my opinion ofcourse cause im sure there are Experts in the RN and USMC whom have calculated what the best choice for THEM would be. The IAF's Choice on the otherhand i donot understand considdering they dont have carriers they wont really need it but they porlly have theyr reason Smile

But what I am afraid of beyond all capabilties of all planes and stuff, is the pentagon what if they close down the project then 9 nations will have invested for absolutely nothing just because they country where the manufacturer is settled doesnt want it anymore...

The best choice for the RN and what they want is really the navalised Typhoon (typhoon with CFTs, uprated ej200s [possibly tvc aswell], strengthened gear]... they're actually getting the JSF forced on them by Mr Poodle (for those of you who dont know who this is... its Blair) trying to play nice nice to Bush... oh and the fact we'd already put a few hundred million into the project when the RN said what they wanted.

Driver wrote:

And now this Smile

as i sayed before Dogfighting is a thing of the past and since f-35 is same or even better at BVR then F-22 why spend hundreds of millions while you can get the same thing with tens of millions. And dont say a dogfights bound to happen cause u know the Aim-9X vs J-11 F-35 whipes the J-11 of the map.

I believe in the complete opposite. I think the F-35, at least for the USAF, would be a HUGE waste of tax dollars. I mean come on, the F-35 is supposed to be an attack aircraft which can hit a target without being seen, but wait, that's right, we already have an aircraft with that capability, and it's called the F-117!!! Besides, most of the JSF's missions can be done just as well and even cheaper by an F-16, and the F/A-22, if needed, can be modified for A2G use as well as being used as an air dominance fighter. Driver, I don't understand what you mean by "since f-35 is same or even better at BVR then F-22", because it's not going to have a better BVR capability since the F-35 is designed as mainly an A2G aircraft, while in contrast, the F/A-22 was primarily designed as a pure A2A aircraft. Just because the F-35 will have newer avionics, it doesn't automatically mean it would have a superior BVR capability than a Raptor.

I say the USAF should just cancel it's order for F-35's, and use the funds to purchase more -22's, and have them modified for A2G work. I also think the F-117 production line should be re-opened so we could purchase more of those too.

I don't think the F-35 will have close to the same BVR capability of the F-22, but you know what??? NOBODY on this forum really knows (if they do, they sure as hell wouldn't be saying it here). The only thing that we do know for sure is that the F-22 has a bigger radar than the F-35, and it makes a difference even with the AESA radars. We don't know the RCS of either airplane, nor the performance envelopes. Based then on what we do know - The F-22 has a bigger array, usually flies faster and higher for better missile range (think F-15 vs. F-16) - then the F-22 is going to be a better BVR platform. The only way that wouldn't be true is if the two have an identical RCS and thermal image, and the F-35's radar has some amazing upgrades that I can't imagine wouldn't find their way into the Raptor. The F-22 would dominate a F-35 in A/A combat. That being said: The F-35 will dominate everything else out there.

Quote:

I don't think the F-35 will have close to the same BVR capability of the F-22, but you know what??? NOBODY on this forum really knows

True, but being realistic, its not just radar power and RCS, of which Raptor will have the upper hand even if we may never know numbers. The Raptor was simply designed to perform as a superior air-to-air platform, that is the reason it exists, while the performance of the F-35 will be multirole. And any major advantage the F-35 will have in terms of sensors will likely make its way to the Raptor in later batches…

agilefalcon16 wrote:

Driver wrote:

And now this Smile

as i sayed before Dogfighting is a thing of the past and since f-35 is same or even better at BVR then F-22 why spend hundreds of millions while you can get the same thing with tens of millions. And dont say a dogfights bound to happen cause u know the Aim-9X vs J-11 F-35 whipes the J-11 of the map.

I believe in the complete opposite. I think the F-35, at least for the USAF, would be a HUGE waste of tax dollars. I mean come on, the F-35 is supposed to be an attack aircraft which can hit a target without being seen, but wait, that's right, we already have an aircraft with that capability, and it's called the F-117!!! Besides, most of the JSF's missions can be done just as well and even cheaper by an F-16, and the F/A-22, if needed, can be modified for A2G use as well as being used as an air dominance fighter. Driver, I don't understand what you mean by "since f-35 is same or even better at BVR then F-22", because it's not going to have a better BVR capability since the F-35 is designed as mainly an A2G aircraft, while in contrast, the F/A-22 was primarily designed as a pure A2A aircraft. Just because the F-35 will have newer avionics, it doesn't automatically mean it would have a superior BVR capability than a Raptor.

I say the USAF should just cancel it's order for F-35's, and use the funds to purchase more -22's, and have them modified for A2G work. I also think the F-117 production line should be re-opened so we could purchase more of those too.

The Saying that its an attack fighter is just done because the pentagon doesnt want the US ppl to think the F-35 will replace the F-22 TRUST me its SUPER in AA just because they dont release it to the public and only to cooperative goverments doesnt mean its not true. The F-117 had been reported to exist for 10 years so dont think everything your goverment tells you

2sBlind wrote:

I don't think the F-35 will have close to the same BVR capability of the F-22, but you know what??? NOBODY on this forum really knows (if they do, they sure as hell wouldn't be saying it here). The only thing that we do know for sure is that the F-22 has a bigger radar than the F-35, and it makes a difference even with the AESA radars. We don't know the RCS of either airplane, nor the performance envelopes. Based then on what we do know - The F-22 has a bigger array, usually flies faster and higher for better missile range (think F-15 vs. F-16) - then the F-22 is going to be a better BVR platform. The only way that wouldn't be true is if the two have an identical RCS and thermal image, and the F-35's radar has some amazing upgrades that I can't imagine wouldn't find their way into the Raptor. The F-22 would dominate a F-35 in A/A combat. That being said: The F-35 will dominate everything else out there.

Yes I dont really know. But when I ask my dad (and he does know) he gives me incomplete awnsers sothat he wouldnt be giving away secrets but what I can make out from them is that its VERY good at AA.

Trust me! If the F-35 wasn't very good at A-A aswell The Dutch, Belgians, italians, Danish, Norwegians would have stepped out of the program because those nations will rely 100% (not 99% but the FULL 100%) on the F-35 to do their AA work. And Trust me The Dutch would have stepped away if it wasn't VERY well in AA.

From the UK perspective there is a bit of a wobble, at least in the media, as to what JSF would best serve our needs, or even if JSF IS the aircraft to meet our needs.

The increase in the anti-JSF camp has been caused by issues over technology share causing concerns that despite our investment and sharing of UK technology we may:
* Best case - get the same JSF as the US but be reliant on the US for weapons integration and upgrades.
* Worse case - end up with an inferior export version (less sensors, higher RCS, etc) and STILL be reliant on the US for weapons integration and upgrades.
The best case can be lived with (the sensors on the JSF alone represent a quantum leap - equivilant to an F Mk 3 Tornado carrying a GR Mk 4's Raptor pod AND another GR Mk 4's weapon load) and possibly renegogiated (GR Mk 9 vs AV-8B+. Neither parther has been reliant on the other since initial development).
The worse case gives us little advantage over our current air frames! In this case the anti-JSF camp suggest a buy of Rafale's for the carriers but the RAF would presumably have to soldier on with the GR Mk 9 Harrier (which, whilst excellant at its job, is sooner or later going to run out of airframe life).

The pro-JSF camp has also wobbled in that, with the need to operate off the Invincible class removed, the need for a handicapped B model has declined to the point where a mix of B (for FOB CAS missions) and C (strike and fleet defence)is being considered, and some even talk off a C only buy.
The real JSF zealots take things even further and suggest an early retirement of the GR Mk 4 and replacing it with a UK led 2-Seat JSF (Streched A airframe with C style wings). A nice dream, I suppose Smile

Looks like the MoD has set its heart on a UK UCAV (no bad thing from my perspective!)

So, if guaranteed a US equivilant JSF (and thus an adequate return on our investment) then sure, give me a mixed JSF/Typhoon RAF fleet and a JSF FAA fleet. If we can be allowed to carry out our own upgrades (no reason why not since BAES is the third partner) so much the better. Just let us choose our own name for it!

But if we're going to get JSF-Lite then thanks, but no thanks.

Just my two pennys worth!

Yes, Safetystick is hitting the nail on the head. Low observable technology applied in the F-22, the frontal sphere of the F-35, UCAV's etc. is a non-exportable or a restricted exportable strategic item.
The superior exotic F-22 Stratofighter can find a good job in Israel, Japan or Australia, but the US will not export it. In case of the F-35 Thunderchief II, there will be good friends (Australia, Canada, UK, Euro Participating AFs), friends and just relatives, the British are already worried: do we get the 1st Class product?.
That is not a good sign, remember the export succes of the J-79 (Starfighter engine) equipped F-16/79 = nil.
Tampering techniques to degrade the F-35 stealth capability will cost an estimated 1-2 billion USD to develop, the customer of a 2nd class F-35 will pay for this.
This can make a non-stealthy Euro-canard, Chinese J-10, FC-1, Sukhoi PAK-FA an attractive alternative.

Weapon integration and upgrades, which can only be done by the US is not a good selling point, the Israelis will certainly not like this.

Some see the F-35 as an incrementally improved F-18C, some as a single-engine F-111 with inferior payload/range.
The F-35 tri-US service & international program will not be cancelled, however do not be not surprised when the USAF buy less then 1000 planes and the USN get rid of the F-35B STOVL.
It is a pitty that the F-35 concept is a step back compared to the Light Weight Fighter concept, the US air forces have forgotten the bright ideas of John R. Boyd and Harry Hillaker.
'Waste of money'? Hopefully not, if ther are enough Raptors and Typhoons around, the JSF bombtruck can do his job well.
WVR dogfighting will not be something of the past, the US made that painfull mistake in Vietnam, experience in Kosovo 1999 showed again that manouvrability is also very useful in A2G missions to avoid AAM, SAM, triple A hits.
Large F-16 customers like: Greece, Turkey, Israel, Egypt, Taiwan, South-Korea have neighbours, who are a (big) threat. So they need an airborne workhorse with very good Air-to-Air performance at first and with a good (secondary) A2G capability.
Just like that good old but fast wearing out Viper, the Typhoon and the approx 60 million Euro (74 million USD) omni-role Dassault Rafale which is very close in overall performance compared to the F-35.
You want it cheap and small: take the USD 40 million JAS 39 Gripen, although this one is inferior in payload/range compared to the above mentioned planes, the Swedish know how to deal with: datafusion, networkcentric warfare, flexible basing and good life cycle costs.

The Chinese are buying Russian arms for 1 billion USD annually including the transfer of the associated technology.
The upscaled Lavi (J-10) with Russian or Chinese engine; Russian, Israeli, French? or Chinese? avionics can be a competitor to the F-35, if the Chinese can assure good service support.
In 2000, the Dassault AVE stealthy UCAV technology demonstrator made its first flight, this year they joined with Sweden (Sharc-UCAV), Spain, Italy (Alenia Sky-X ucav) and Greece into the nEuroN UCAV program, non-US UCAVs can be a competitor to the F-35.
An Advanced block 70 F-16 is inferior to the F-35 in terms of growth potential and life cycle costs.

- Re-opening the F-117 line? The Nighthawk RCS is bigger than that of a F-22, the latter one has also has a better payload/range, or maybe an UCAV can do the job better.

- Dear 'Driver': 'In the first batch we buy 75-100 and probably in the 2nd batch another 75-100', your Minister of Finance will certainly get a nerve breakdown. There will be a purchase of between 48-80 to fill 3 or 4 squadrons in the RNLAF, next year your MoD will reveal the real number.

Forum: Program and politics

Overall perspective of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter