Forum: Air Power

There are contradictory comments from both sides..The USAF claimed a kill ratio of 10:1 in favor of Sabre.Russians claimed 4:1 in favor of MIG-15..Which one is true..Which aircraft was better?

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The Sabre OWNED the MiG-15! The Russians claimed their total on paper. The USAF claimed their total with gun camera footage and eyewitness accounts.

Remember McConnell, Jabara, Davis, Risner, Whisner, Kincheloe, Blesse, Olds, Fernandez, and Gabreski? You either do, or you should.

There were 4 Soviet and 4 Chinese military advisors who became aces in Korea. There were 40, yes FORTY Americans who became aces in Korea. No Bravo Sierra. Our evidence is real.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Didnt the cheap Mig 15 out climb, out turn, out accelerate our F 86??

You know what really owned the poor commies. It was our training.

Quote:

Only if an American plane is brought down over the combat area was it counted as a "loss". U.S. Air Force does not count planes damaged beyond repair by the enemy or forced to land on enemys ground on the way home. The Soviets do, so their figures are naturally higher with regards to kills.

You see why now.

Here is a list of Soviet Aces.

Quote:

Sutyagin N V 21+2 (21 personal and 2 in group)
Pepelyaev Ye G 19 (and 4 more Pepelyaev's kills was recorded on his wingman score)
Smortzkow A P 15
Schukin L K 15
Oskin D P 14 (or 11 on another sources)
Ponomaryov M S 14 (or 11 on another sources)
Kramarenko S M 13
Sutzkow 12
Sheberotov N K 12
Bakhayev S A 11
Dokashenko N G 11
Ohay G U 11 (and 6 in WW2)
Pomaz 11
Samoylov D A 10
Milaushkin M S 10
Pulov G I 10 (or 8 on another sources)
Mihin M I 9
Subbotin S P 9
Zabelin N V 9
Ges G I 8 (or 9 on another sources)
Fedorets S A 7 confirmed and 1 unconfirmed - unconfirmed victory is downing of the best of American aces McConnell plane on 12.04.53.
Babonin N N 7
Zaplavnev I M 7
Ivanov L M 7 (not Nikolay Ivanov from your list who have 3 cofirmed kills 1 unconfirmed kill and 2 damaged planes)
Bokatz B V 6
Vishnyakov S F 6
Zameskin N M 6
Nikolayev A P 6
Nikulin P F 6
Boitsov A S 6
Hvostontsev V M 6
Abakumov B S 5
Bashman A T 5
Belousov V I 5
Berelidze G N 5
Bogdanov G I 5
Gerasimenko N I 5
Danilov S D 5
Dmitryuk G F 5
Karelin A M 5
Korniyenko N L 5
Kochegarov A M 5
Lepikov V L 5
Naumenko S I 5
Obraztsov B A 5
Olenitsa 5
Prudnikov 5
Siskov B N 5
Shelamanov N K 5
Shkodin N I 5

aeroweb.it

List of our Aces.

Quote:

Joseph McConnell 16 Korea United States
James Jabara 15(16.5 WWII) Korea United States
Manuel J. Fernandez 14.5 Korea United States
George Davis Jr. 14(21 WWII) Korea United States
Royal N. Baker 13(16.5 WWII) Korea United States
Fredrick Blesse 10 Korea United States
Harold E. Fischer 10 Korea United States
Vermont Garrison 10(17.3 WWII) Korea United States
James Johnson 10(11 WWII) Korea United States
Lonnie R. Moore 10 Korea United States
Ralph S. Parr Jr. 10 Korea United States
Cecil G. Foster 9 Korea United States
James F. Low 9 Korea United States
Robinson Wisner 8 Korea United States
George L. Ruddell 8 Korea United States
Clifford D. Jolley 7 Korea United States
Francis Gabreski 6.5(34.5 WWII)Korea United States
Donald E. Adams 6.5 Korea United States
Geroge L. Jones 6.5 Korea United States
Winton W. Marshall 6.5 Korea United States
James H. Kasler 6 Korea United States
Robert P. Baldwin 5 Korea United States
Richard S. Becker 5 Korea United States
Stephen L. Bettinger 5 Korea United States
John F. Bolt 5(12) Korea United States
Guy P. Bordelon 5 Korea United States
Clyde A. Curtin 5 Korea United States
Ralph D. Gibson 5 Korea United States
Ivan C. Kinchloe 5 Korea United States
Robert T. Latshaw 5 Korea United States
Robert H. Moore 5 Korea United States
Dolphin D. Overton, III 5 Korea United States
William H. Wescott 5 Korea United States
Walker M. Mahurin 3.5(23.5 WWII) Korea United States
Philip C. DeLong 2(13.2 WWII) Korea United States
Dewey F. Durnford 2(6.8 WWII) Korea United States
John W. Andre 1(5 WWII) Korea United States
Robert Wade 0.5(8 WWII) Korea

Shev

TC is correct! Smile

Yes the Mig was lighter, etc, etc, and flown by inferior drivers. Plain and simple.

And the Commie numbers are just that, horse manure. We've got the film and two party claims. What have they got, NOT A GOSH DARN THING... Wink

So TC is your boss. Very Happy

Shev

A couple Americans were left off of the list. Tis true though, the top Soviet did have 21 kills.

Here is an official source. Please note however, that since this is the USAF's official list, the USN aces are not available.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/korea/aces.pdf

Here's the official list from the Korean War Memorial with all 40 American aces listed.

http://koreanwarmemorial.sd.gov/Main_Su ... ps/KWA.htm

The 4 Soviet and 4 Chinese pilots officially listed as aces by our standards are:

Nikolay Sutyagin Soviet Union 21
Yevgeny Pepelyaev Soviet Union 19
Lev Shchukin Soviet Union 13
Sergei Kramarenko Soviet Union 13
Baotong Zhao China 7
Yudi Liu China 6
Daoping Jiang China 5
Decai Han China 5

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Digging back into my brain, I seem to recall that the MiG 15 could not go supersonic, even in a dive due to controls losing effectiveness. The Sabre could go supersonic in a shallow dive. Therefore, you could out-dive the MiG with the Sabre. All airplanes have their strengths and weaknesses, but it's the PILOT who can exploit his strengths against his enemy's weaknesses who will win the day.

As for who has which kills, I say, let's go to the instant replay Bob! I'm with TC here Thumb

! If you counted jets as kills that were too badly damaged to fly again, but were able to land safely, you have just increased the Iraqi military's kill ratio for AAA and SAMs against the Warthog. Some of those jets were damaged badly enough as to not be salvagable, but I think the pilots would seriously protest that incident being called a "kill."

If you can put it down and walk away from it, it's not a "kill". Kill means the poor b@$tard punched out or rode it into a smoking hole.

Also, some of those AA kills up there were acheived against F4Us, F9Fs, F-80s, and B-29s. We didn't lose that many Sabres in the war.

I'll end by saying that I now have as much respect for Sutyagin, Pepelyaev, Shchukin, and Kramarenko as I do the American aces. To become an ace is a big enough honor, but to shoot down 13, 19, or even 21 planes is VERY impressive! Sutyagin, and Pepelyaev got more kills than McConnell (16.5) and Jabara (15). Too bad they were flying for the other side.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Quote:

Sutyagin, and Pepelyaev got more kills than McConnell (16.5) and Jabara (15). Too bad they were flying for the other side

Agree there.

But attending to our USAF lists is a bit risky. Im sure they played down the other sides kills. Its politics. Russians arent any different. You want a nuetral list.

Shev Very Happy

The F-86 had two other advantages. The F-86 had a full around bubble canopy, the MiG did not. So the American had an easier time finding the MiG, then vice versa.
And the F-86 had full hydraulic boosted controls, so easy that you could pilot it with one finger. While the MiG, you would have to lift weights between flights to build up the strength needed.
And not all commies were bad pilots.

AC Sheva,
Forget the aces list. Is you problem if you believe the US claims or Russians. There is one detail that can help someone to build a picture about Korean air war. There were never more than 150 Sabres that had to face ~ 900 Russian, Chinese and NK Migs 15...

Quote:

Forget the aces list

.

Why Cru? Almost everyone on this thread has reffered to the list. Should they forget too, probably not. The list is an "another" detail to the Korean War. Might I add, a very important one.

Shev Very Happy

You didn't red all my post. What I meant is there will always be a difence between the Russian/Chinese/NK version of the war and the American one. It's your problem if you believe the Russians (as someone who lived in a former comunist country I have serious reason to disconsider any Russian source)
However, if you want to have a general picture of what was the Korean war, and the way the US pilots performed, I will tell again: there were never more than 150 F 86 and they had to face ~ 900 Migs...

Ok , In one of my older Aircraft aviation magazines I found this information regarding the Saber in the Korean War:

F-86:
Total Combat Missions: 87177
Average used machines: 184

Amerikan loses:
Air Combat: 78
AA: 19
Unknown: 13
Total loses through the enemy: 110

Lost without enemy influence: 61
Missed: 13
Accident (not in a mission): 34
Accident (not in a Fighter Wing): 6
Total loses: 224

Droped Bombs: 7508t
Droped Napalm: 148t
Fired Missiles: 270
Dead Pilots: 47
Missed Pilots: 65
Wounded Pilots: 6

Enemy Loses through the F-86:
Migs Shot down: 792
Other Shot down planes: 18
Planes destroyed onthe ground: 4
Total of enemy destroeyed Planes: 814
Propably destroyed planes: 119
Damadged planes: 818

Source: USAF Statistical Digest, defence budged 1953

Does anyone have the gun camera footage that shows the MIG 15 that Buzz Aldrin shot down?

Forum: Air Power

Sabre Versus Mig-15 in Korea 1950