Forum: Air Power

Lisafer wrote:

Hey hey, Lisa from New Zealand, and we have no strike force so I've been in av-gas withdrawal for far far too long lol. I miss our Skyhawks and grrr to the govt for cancelling our F-16 order. Evil or Very Mad

lol

Where in NZ Lisafer? I lived in Australia for 6 months and travelled all over NZ for a little over a month. Does NZ have a need for fighters? Who would attack them? When I was there I walked up to the "Beehive" front steps, which is equivilent to strolling up the steps of the Congress here, completely unchecked...it was nice to be in a country that had no worries.

Off Topic

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Bjorn wrote:

Both answers are 'nothing'

Oh burn... Thanks for that one!! Crying or Very sad

Way to make me feel a lot better about my country's lack of Airforce. lol

Quote:

F/A 18... better than a viper...? Prepare for harrassment!

trailmix With you on that one!!!

That does concern me about New Zealand. What the hell are they supposed to do now? Glom off of the RAAF for defense? I guess that COULD (in theory) work, as neither country are knee-deep in the $hit right now.

The A-4 was a great strike jet, but the Kiwis need an actual Strike Fighter. I could see the Aussies selling the Kiwis their Hornets, the Americans upgrading the jets for them, and the Aussies buying the Super Bug.

Either that, or the Kiwis will begin purchasing some hand me down Hornets and/or Vipers from the Yanks.

Something is telling me one of these scenarios is what will happen.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Heres hoping. A wonderful tub of knowledge by the name of nzenthusiast told me that NZ could have also got MiG-29s. DAMN!!!! No F-16s or MiGs?? Grrrr Evil or Very Mad

Anyway, we have an obligation to the US to pretty much take what they offer us (think I may have said that before) before we really consider other options, so yes TC one of said scenarios will probably happen. Fingers crossed anyway, because pretty much anything is better than what we have now Rolling Eyes

lol.

Thats right we also got offered mig 29s, saab 39s, if we had enough dosh we could have paid for the harrier lines to be reopened, there were F18s offered, there may have been mriages but after what they did to us (rainbow warrior) and by there bad treatment of past customers ie Australia we would have told them to piss off . Pretty much if it was cheap and was multi role we got offered it.

there isn't much point in us buying Australias hornets because by the time we get them they will almost be lifeless, but we could fix that (some gum here and there).

New Zealand only ever used its skyhawks once and that was in 1997 (might have been 1987) when a tawianese fishing boat was illegaly fishing in NZ waters, it wouldnt listen to the Orion (it had nothing onboard to attack it with) so they called in a pair of skyhawks they boat was told they were coming and they left.

New Zealand needs strike/nulti role fighters for these reasons:

Our navy needs to practise being attacked by ships, the only time it gets practice in this is when we go on pracise missions with ASEAN countries.
Our army needs to know how to fight with air support available (im sure they know how i just think they need some practise)
I want to be an engineer and maintain the things and im sure lisafer wouldn't mind have something to do with them
Fighters would be the easiest thing (i think) for us to deploy when we want to offer assistance to Allies or the UN (with the help of tankers, we used c130s when we had the skyhawks)
We need to show more commitiment to our allies, us puirchasing jets would show that we still support them (helen clark tries to tell us they still like us i dont believe that)
Australia doesn't like Indonesia and vice verus and that DOES raise the threat of a pacific war (why did those idiots sell them F-16s)

With America being the world's "great moderators," and being allies with both Australia and Indonesia, I don't see a war ever occurring between the two countries.

The Yanks haven't forgotten out Kiwi friends though. I could see us making a sweet deal coming in the very near future. Like I said before, the U.S. Navy/Marine Corps are procuring more Super Hornets, and will bring the F-35 on in a few years. At that point, I could see the Kiwis getting some hand me down Hornets, and maybe even some Harriers as well.

With the latest round of BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) for the U.S., we will be sending some C and D model Vipers to the Bone Yard. Now might be the best chance to buy some Vipers that the U.S. either doesn't need, or doesn't have space for.

Want some assault choppers? Well...we can fix you up there too! We're about to make the AH-1Z King Cobra operational, so that will mean some older Cobras will no longer be needed by the Marines.

I thought the Kiwis were on the JSF bandwagon. I know the Aussies are interested in buying them, and probably will, so they can get rid of their Hornets, but what was New Zealand's stance on the F-35 program?

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

New Zealand is not involved in the JSF program directly as in we havent made an investment or a pre order. there may be kiwi (NZ) businesses involved but i doubt it. the problem we have is our politicans if national was in power we would have kept the 22 F-16s and i wouldn't be suprised if they had invested in the F35 program.
At this stage is going to be neck and election which like the last two american ones. If national or NZ first win they election there is a high chance that the Viper could be ordered.

I would assume then that National is NZ's conservative, pro-military party line, much like America's Republican Party?

What party is NZ's liberal party, or the equivalent of our Democratic Party?

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

ok, Helen Clark and her labour party are like John Kerry and his Democrats. Don Brash and his national party are like George Bush and his Republicans. Then New Zealand has a group of minor parties.

New Zealand first a centre rightish party, these guys are real strong on military (very few people know about it), there defence spooksperson was once a very highly ranked officer in the NZ army, these guys want to buy F-16s, attack helis, the works...

The Greens have all these co-leaders, these guys are real left and consider Navy for a ship with a gun on the front bad.

There are the following parties which don't matter to much United future, Maori party (if these guys get into power I personally guarantee there will be a civil war) and then the act party.

One thing you do have to consider that our politics in general is alot more conservative than american politics...

Yeah, I kinda got that 'Liberal' vibe from Helen Clark. What little they talk about NZ politics on American national news, I'd have to say the cards are not in Clark's favor to remain in office. Then again, I really have less than a "fly on the wall" perspective.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

We have a single transferable voting system, which is a form of proportional representation to elect our govt, meaning all the f***en little minority parties get heard a lot louder than they probably should. I refuse to openly diss Helen Clark but grrrr Evil or Very Mad

Its very doubtful that she will remain in power. She's just annoyed too many people. NZ political parties have to be more conservative, more in the middle than American political parties because we just don't have the massive voting base that the Americans do. Unfortunately. And we have very vocal minorities. So very vocal minorities with a conservative but semi-uncaring majority, makes for IRRITATING government!!!!! And annoying political science studies....Anyway, back on said topic, National will get in next election, or I'm moving to Canada lol. Seriously.

What's worst about the American voting system is that we have so many people who have the opportunity to vote, and choose not to. It's not sad, it's just pathetic.

I do hope the Kiwis can make some good decisions about not only their military, but also their politics. When is the next election?

I was also thinking the U.S. might sell the Kiwis some of our older Apaches. That would be a good toss up...

Updated Cobras from the Marines or early Apaches from the Army?

Both have their good and bad points...

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

The next election is always decided by the PM except in very rare cases where the governer general (queens representative in New Zealand) will step in and call one. Under the current rules an election must be held before September 16th. Its lucky that the election will be held the weekend before that as labour will want to go full term. Our prime minister actually has to go to court a month before then because her driver got accused of brakeing the rules and going over the speed limit when not necessary (to get helen to a sports game).

I could see us getting AH-1W super cobras. they were actually consider when the skyhawks needed replacing (it included the missile arming of P-3 orions). They eventually dropped that propossile (bad spelling) because it had significantly less firepower than fixed wing aircraft against targets other than armoured vehicles. They also wouldn't have enough range to make them effective (transporting them for a deploying would also be a pain). It was also viewed that using the orion anti shipping would be putting to any crew (11) at risk. it was decided that the F-16 lease would be more apporpriate.

Proposal

And despite how appropriate the Viper would be, did we get them? No. Why didn't we get them? The Greens Evil or Very Mad

I know it was years ago now, but that is one anger that will undoubtedly never subside lol.

As for the Cobras versus the Apaches....hard choice but I will go for the Cobras. No really good reason other than the fact that I have a few on my wall at home...Sad that thats the only reason I will give lol. But why should I give a big rant on it when oh-so-knowledgeable nzenthusiast will do it for me? Razz

hehehe....

AH-1 Cobra Specifications

Primary Function: Anti-armour and close support/attack helicopter
Contractor: Bell
Crew: Two (pilot in rear, copilot/gunner in front)
Unit Cost: N/A
Powerplant Two 1212-kW General Electric T700-GE-401 turboshafts
Dimensions
Length: 58 feet
Wingspan: 10 feet 7 in
Height: 14 feet 2 in
Weights
Empty: 10,200 lb (4627 kg) -- AH-1W
Maximum Takeoff: 14,750 lb (6691 kg) -- AH-1W
Performance
Speed: 175mph (152kt, 282 km/h)
Ceiling: N/A
Range: 395 miles (635 km / 343 nm) -- AH-1W
Armament
one chin-mounted M-197 3-barrelled 20mm cannon. Max 2,466 lb including 8 TOW or hellfire ATGMs, seven or 19-shot 70mm (2.75 in) rocket pods, 127mm (5 in) Zuni rockets, cluster munitions, napalm, AIM-9 and Stinger IR AAMs and drop tanks; qualified for AGM-65 Maverick AGMs.
AH-1 Cobra Achievements:
The AH-1 is fully capable of performing its attack mission in all weather conditions.

AH-1 Cobra Background:

The AH-1 Cobra was the world's first dedicated (that is, specifically designed) armed attack helicopter. The need for an armed gunship to protect unarmed helicopters had quickly become apparent during the early months of the Vietnam conflict, when many helicopters were lost to ground fire. The AH-1, being fast, heavily armed, and highly maneuverable, proved itself a powerful combatant throughout the rest of the war. Its precedent-setting design has led to many other variations (including some with two engines) and a number of other armed helicopters have been developed by different manufacturers.

AH-64 Apache Specifications

Primary Function: Day/night, twin-engined, attack/reconnaissance helicopter.
Contractor: McDonnell Douglas (Boeing)
Crew: Two
Unit Cost: N/A
Powerplant two T700-GE-701C turboshafts each rated at 1,800 shp (1342 kW)
Dimensions
Length: 58.17 ft (17.73 m)
Wingspan: 17.15 ft (5.227 m)
Height: 15.24 ft (4.64 m)
Weights
Empty: 11,387 lb (5165 kg)
Maximum Takeoff: 15,075 lb (6838 kg) -- gross
Performance
Speed: 153 kt (284 kph)
Ceiling: N/A
Range: 400 km - internal fuel
1,900 km - internal and external fuel
Armament:
M230 30mm Gun
70mm (2.75 inch) Hydra-70 Folding-Fin Aerial Rockets
AGM-114 Hellfire anti-tank missiles
AGM-122 Sidearm anti-radar missile
AIM-9 Sidewinder Air-to-Air missiles
AH-64 Apache Achievements:
Apaches fired the first shots of the Desert Storm War -- attacking Iraqi radar sites.
AH-64 Apache Background
Around the world, defense forces fly two variants of the AH-64 Apache multi-mission combat helicopters: the AH-64A Apache and the next-generation version, the AH-64D. Equipped with radar, the aircraft is known as the AH-64D Apache Longbow, without radar it is the AH-64D Apache.

The AH-64A Apache was widely recognized as the most advanced combat-proven attack helicopter in the world for the past decade and is the predecessor of today's unmatched AH-64D Apache Longbow multi-mission combat helicopter. Some 900 AH-64As are in service worldwide for the U.S. Army and five international customers. The Apache uses laser, infrared and other high technology systems like the Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensor to find, track and attack armored and other targets. The AH-64A were 85% or more combat ready when called upon in the Gulf War.

In all, Boeing delivered 937 AH-64A, 821 of which were delivered to the US Army and 116 to international customers, including Egypt, Greece, Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates between 1984 and 1997.

Many people seem to think that New Zealand aquiring the Appache would be over kill. Not in my view because we are going to need the extra range if we are ever going to deploy them. Also the appache seems to have more of a future.

The Cobra or super cobra were considered as replacements for the skyhawks but got dropper because the reasons for air combat were for an aircraft that could provide, marine strike, air interdiction and close air support. The cobra (and the appache) could only provide one of these three needs ie air support. Therefore the idea got dropped for the aquiring of F-16s which for those of you don't know, to date hasn't happened.

The idea of New Zeland haveing air combat capability isn't tcompletely dead despite the views of many. Although it will take at least 10 years New Zealand can get air combat capability back as long as Helen Clark and the greens get locked away somewhere. I actually have e mail contact with the defence spokesmen of New Zeakans largest oppoition party national and they say they have plans to get the capability back, along wit hseveral other smaller parties.