Forum: Air Force Life

They left sigle ship yesterday from here. No different than the Grey Jets I see everyday.

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OK, guys. So the T-Birds don't have a weapons troop. So they don't have a gun. Last I heard, they needed the gun bay for a smoke system because their purpose in life and in the sky is to promote the Air Force, not to kill and break things.

You guys might get to see them every day out at Indian Springs. You might have seen 'em every year for the last 28 like I have the Blues. You guys get to see these jets all day every day. I've seen military jets every day since I can remember and I have all the respect in the world for the pilots and crew chiefs.

But you know what? I still love the Blues and the T-Birds! Even though they haven't changed their show much since the invention of supersonic flight, I still love to watch 'em. I'm sure I'm like a lot of civilians who don't get out on the flightline everyday in that respect.

So to everyone saying how much these guys suck, I have two requests - First, chill out! For crying out loud, why do you have to whine so publicly about the demo team? Are you just jealous? Did you have a bad day? I don't understand the need to bash them from here to timbucktu.
Second, chill out! We civilians are out to enjoy a good airshow and a good T-Birds performance. Please let us. I know I enjoy a movie a lot more if I don't have someone sitting a row behind me pointing out every minor inaccuracy and every mistake. These guys work their @$$es off to put on a show. If you think you've got the stuff, go join the team and keep up that kind of a maintenance record. Same goes to the Blues.

So to sum it all up, please QUITCHERBITCHIN!

I agree...

The T-Birds are a demo team and may not be the best fighters in the world, but they are some of the best pilots! If you don't like them then OK fine, but posting on a F-16 fan site how much they suck is a bad idea. I wouldn't go onto "F/A-18.net" and say I think the 'Angels suck'.

On the other hand, I think that I few of you old-timers need to relax a little... This was just a bad joke! And all that "free speech stuff" that goes with voicing an opinion.

And to the T-Birds and former T-Birds + crews out there: You've inspired a countless number of people to follow their dreams of filght (including myself)! And you are still heroes just for that, thank you! Thumb

I dunno that's just my Two Cents

I wont debate your oppinions mad dog but here are some of my own...

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4. Having been a crew chief for 20 years (retired thank you very much) I have a built in preference to units who deliver weapons rather than just trail smoke. That IS the mission.

Some warriors wield the sword, others wield words. I think both are neccessary. The Thunderbirds have their job, and im sure that if we suddenly went to war and in a shortage of pilots they were asked to go drop bombs they wouldnt oppose. Right now the USAF isnt asking them to drop bombs right now, the USAF is asking them to generate publicity. Fact remains they are doing their job for the USAF, not for themselves or for something else. Everyones gotta pull lead, no matter what color it is it all weighs the same.

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6. Any T-Bird on the ground or in the air will tell you that they improve through "criticism".

IMHO, there is a difference between being Critical and being Cynical. Criticism usually comes coupled with suggestions.

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3. The T-Birds are a DEMO team. Their stated purpose is to demonstrate the skills EVERY USAF pilot has and there are better pilots out there in operational units.

I dont think that anyones ever insinuated that the Thunderbirds are the elite of the elite. They are not a special forces squadron or something. Your right, there prolly are a few better pilots in other units. But those pilots arent in the Thunderbirds position. Maybe other qualifications come with being a Thunderbird? Im almost sure all Thunderbirds have to have great people skills and be good with public affairs. The Thunderbirds role is a role as ambassadors. Who are they ambassadors to? Well, lots of people. But mainly the people of the US.

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8. It's a fact that the Blue Angels have a tighter, more challenging Demo. Live with it.

Well sure, when you go that slow! Twisted Evil

Anyways Maddog, thanks for your reply and I think most of us understand more now. But one thing? Why was it posted where you posted it to begin with?

-Aaron

--DISCLAIMER: I am not on the Team, don't have an application pending, and don't have 'best friends' on the team. This is just my opinion. I know this is a rather long post, but please read it through completely before coming back at me with "well I still think..." In the end your opinion may differ than mine, and more power to you for it.--

I think part of the problem with the whole "t-bird bashing" comes from an ingrained animosity among the regular enlisted maintenance ranks. Just about everyone who has spent time in the F-16 maintenance world has worked with, or for, someone who was on the 'team' at one point or another. At the very least, every F-16 maintainer out there has heard the other guys (and girls, I know ya'll are out there too) bashing the t-birds. I heard it start in tech school- and one of my instructors was an ex-thunderbird.

One of the biggest gripes I've heard is about how the team gets 'everything', and I've bitched about this myself. They show up, and we are TOLD they get whatever they want, when they want it, and be-damned if we need it or not. But, they are only there for a couple of days, and then they're off to somewhere else. Another gripe is how so many people on the team are cocky, arrogant, concieded, a$$holes, etc. The worst part is there are people on the team like that and they give the rest a bad name. But its the damndest thing- I work with people who are arrogant, cocky, concieded, and a$$holes every single day- and they've never been around the thunderbirds, and certainly aren't singled out day to day for the way they are. Anyone who comes on here and say's they've never worked with people like that, hasn't made it out of grade school yet.

Something nobody bothers to think about is the sacrafices people on the team make. How many AF regulars can say they were away from their home and family 200+ days out of the year? I know there are exceptions out there, and it won't be long before someone replys talking about WW-'Nam when they spend 2 years straight deployed in some swamp. Thunderbirds get some hellacious perks for their travel, and not all of them are on every trip. But, for all their fame and publicity, the ground crews are thrown on whatever transport the AF has handy going in their direction- who here has crossed the country (or one of the oceans) sitting in a C-130? I haven't but I hear its a great time sitting on cargo pallots that long.

The fact of the matter is, the thunderbirds get paid to represent the Air Force to THE GENERAL PUBLIC, period. They are not doing what they do to impress those of us in the military, or the odd competition aerobatic pilot who can critique about a loop not being perfectly round. Their pilots probably can't drop a bomb as accurate as our guys in Afghanistan, because they spend three-four years practicing precision flying, and only precision flying. Our guys in Afghanistan and Iraq can strafe and bomb and blow stuff up all day long with phenominal ability- but ask any four to do a tight formation loop or roll, and likely you'll have four F-16's for sale as scrap. They don't practice that stuff, its not their job.

The same goes for the maintainers. They are a great bunch of people, overall. They have some that excell, and they have some that maybe shouldn't be there, just like the regular squadrons, but they've been selected to represent the rest of us. The guys on the show line, that the crowds see doing the precision launches and recoveries, usually aren't involved in the day to day maintenance during the show season. They spend their days practicing their show routine, because that is what they're getting paid to do. In the end they probably can't do an engine change as quick as they used to, but they can launch and recover an F-16 with eye-watering precision and profesionalism. To you maintainers out there- who still stands at attention to marshal a jet, or lock into parade rest while waiting, like you were trained? 80% of the people I work with don't.

As for the whole Blue Angels/Thunderbirds debate- I agree with alot of the posts that the Blues put on a damn good show, and they do seem to fly tighter with varied routines. The Navy also flies by totally different rules. Think of the videos you see of navy jets going supersonic, 50 feet off the water, right next to the carrier. Any idea what would happen to an Air Force pilot doing that? These days, he'd likely get booted. Navy accepts the higher risk because parking 30 tons of airplane at 120 knots on a runway 300'X75' is kinda dangerous. There is a difference in airplanes, too. In the hornet, with a conventional 'stick', they've got bungee chords holding the stick 'centered' in place. It takes something like 25 lbs of force to move the stick, so it is LOCKED in position- that makes tight formation a little easier, since its harder to 'twitch' and move the stick. Viper drivers can't do that- if they blink too hard, the side stick will sense it and respond. Makes it a little tougher to hold super-tight formations with something that sensative.

The Thunderbirds, in my opinion, put on a damn good show. It is different than the Blues, and the better/worse argument will go on as long as there are two people discussing it. But whichever team is flying, wherever they're at, their job is to represent the military to a general public that usually never sees the military in person. Go to an airshow, and watch a 10 year old kid with dreams of flying watching the sky with absolute awe. Watch a WWII vet look up and swell with pride at the capabilities of todays military men and machines. Walk up to either one of them, look THEM in the eye, and tell them the T-birds suck because they don't drop bombs or their crews are a little to arrogant. If you can do that and not feel completely ashamed, then in my opinion you are a waste of space. There is nothing wrong with having pride in what your aircraft or your squadron is capable of. That doesn't give anyone the right to hate another squadron or aircraft becuase they are in place to do a different job.

After all that, I forgot to add something- in the Korean war, I believe the thunderbirds were temporarily stood down and the pilots when into combat. I think the same happened to the blues, in Korea and Vietnam, but I'm not positive.

he sure likes his lists Very Happy

Little bit off there VPRGUY. We are not, at least I am not jealous in anyway of the Tbirds. I was interviewed twice and I decided both times to not drop an application. I have had close friends crew the #1 jet and sent one Loader to the team straight from under my wing. I wrote many of his EPRs. I decided I did want the life.

What I am referring to is the team show, It was even noted by some past team members (pilots) here that the arrival was not what it used to be. There are grumbling well beyond this board.

Tbird drivers are a 2 year tour and can come from any fighter, they get lead in at Luke then go to the team.

The team members all make sacrifices, time from home etc. BUT trust me they pail in comparison to the sacrifices of "normal" AF members. I think it has been a while since a Tbird maintainer was mortared during a show. Plus the Marriott sure has a softer bed then the tent cot at Balad. The Tbird life is a cake walk brother, even the maintainers are treated like heroes when downtown. A co-worker saw two guys in Applebees after the show and they were swamped by the general public like rock stars.
Sacrifices my A$$. Ask about whaling to a wrench that used to be on the team. It was a past tradition.

Furthermore, if you see a troop launching his or her jet on daily basis and they look like crap, tell them. Teach them pride in ownership and put them on their own jet.

As far a riding in a 130, the team showed in a pretty nice C17 this weekend.

Well, many apologies to any individuals who took my post personally. I put my opinion up as my view on the overall situation, not as a direct attack or rebuttal to any one individual on this site. I also know I may not have nailed all the facts right on the head, I posted what I've come accross and got as general knowledge- thank you Erik for elaborating and clarifying. Thats the best thing about this site- everyone can learn bits and pieces off of it.

Regarding the sacrafices- I know they have it relatively easy- hell, I had it easy at eglin, going TDY to vegas and staying in the candlewood and mariot (instead of the crack plaza on base)- perks to being in a test wing. I also know about sacrafices now, sitting 3/4 of the way through a year tour in Korea (where I haven't been directly threatened, either). When I get home I'll have a couple months with my wife before she leaves for a deployment to places unknown. It sucks. There is no way to directly compare a demonstration (or test) squadron life to the operational world. That is a discussion best suited to another thread, rather than 'why t-birds suck' or 'blues vs. t-birds' as was the intent of this one though. But, point taken and aknowleged. Thanks for the input Smile

I respect his freedom of expression just as much as I respect mine, so he can post his thoughts and I will post mine. Same difference.

Man, some of you guys take this waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too seriously! My old man and I got a pretty good giggle from the top ten. Part of it was a "totally not true laugh" the other part was just a little chuckle of whatever... but still, it shocks me to see the reaction to such a thing. You find the same reaction on a board about music...

Lets say this were a Fender stratocaster guitar site instead of F-16...

Someone posts Top Ten Reasons why Stevie Ray Vaughn sucks (SRV uses a strat)

Everyone knows that SRV is amazing, and much of that is due to his guitar and his ability to play it (whoa, like a pilot flying a good jet)

but then these people go totally ape sh*t becuase someone was semi-trying to be funny, or maybe he was serious and just didnt like it.

The way some of you took it, it would seem as someone just broke into your house and slapped your wife around.

It was an off color joke for this forum, laugh, don't get so offended, if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at...

One last point: this is why I stay away from most online forums, people overreact! I haven't seen that really before here, and I really hope I won't see it again. It totally spoils what I think online forums are about...

Swanee

BTW- The T-Birds are cool, even if they crash and burn every now and then Wink

I say its good fun to pick on the thunderchickens Smile

- until it's done with malicious intent.

Again, like I said earlier, this all comes down to everyone's difference in opinion. Swanee, It's good to hear you and your pops had a good laugh, but again, some people might have a different perception of maddog's post, and might take it more seriously than you. You can't blame them for overreacting, just as no one here is going to give you flak about having a good laugh. Some people have more pride than others in certain things.

Perhaps, it was the words he chose, whether it was intended as a joke, for shock value, or if he was really being serious, some think the way he came out with his list was disrespectful or tasteless. Also, I think some of us are still suspicious of his intentions because he originally posted his list under an F-15 mishap thread, and that seemed pretty random or malicious to do, as if he was trying to get attention.

Regardless, maddog did reply with reasons to justify and explain his list of why the TBirds "suck", so maybe it wasn't intended to be a joke, but rather to express how he really feels. If that's the case, then that's fine. Just explain yourself next time. Others have done the same. If it was meant to be a joke? Well, you choose whether you want to laugh at it or not.

It's all how you look at it. Reading words is different from talking to someone on the phone or in person, so sometimes words are taken out of context. As far as this topic, it seems the debate is stemming from two distinct points of view of the T-Birds...one from a military personnel's point of view and the other from a civilian bystanders (the public) point of view.

Online forums are meant for discussion, debate, tell stories, tell jokes, and to spark interest and EMOTIONS. But just as in our daily lives, sometimes we got to be careful what we say or how we say it, especially because, like I mentioned above, we are reading words, not speaking to someone. At least that's MY opinion.

Personally, I like the regular demo teams better, but I still enjoy the Blues and the TBirds. Keyword: DEMO. I don't think people would want their little kids watching an F-16 blowing the crap out of a truck until they go through puberty. And I could give a **** whether they make a perfect loop or they make a loop the shape of my poop.I know THEIR mission is to spark interest to the public and to put smiles on young children (who I'm sure also don't give a **** whether they make a poop loop or not).

Wow! I sure sparked some debate with that one Shocked

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In reading the replies I got thinking about it and I guess... Way back when you couldn't post on f-16.net unless you were a pilot. Then us maintainers got to post. While I was gone the general public came on board.

Yes my top ten list was what they might call dark humor. But it's our stock and trade. It's a dangerous business for all concerned and many of us cope with dark humor. I tried to explain to the new wife what I did for a living and after listening she said. "You're the last one to see them alive if they crash."

Well...yes. We worry about our pilots much like squires worried about their knights. But never get too close. Call them "flight suit inserts" or "Stick actuators" or "Cockpit Mounted control units". But you back them up with your life. Carry them out of the bar if need be. And yes cry like a baby when someone is lost.

So why did I post that list? Maybe to say "Hey! What's up with the Team?"
They are so rock bottom consistant that deviations stand out and are indicators of deeper problems which if left alone become safety issues and them we're standing down for something tragic. Thunderbird Six went down at Mountain Home because an altimeter was not reset. Come guys (the pilots)... chime in. Am I wrong here? When the basics are being missed there's a problem.

For those of you out of the Viper community. Sorry for flaming you. But maybe you're getting an inside look at how things are.

For those of you inside the Viper Community, thank you for the exchange of ideas. Alot of us don't like to talk about it but it's like ignoring the elephant in the room until it sits on you.

well said

Forum: Air Force Life

Top 10 reasons why the Thunderbirds suck ;-)