Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Have you all forgot about Russia's Su-37 that also has thrust vectoring. After seeing deminstrations of its ability to fly low speeds at low altitudes and vis-versa I think it will give the F-22 a run for its money. I have never siad anything bad about American aircraft except the F/A-18E( I can't believe they are replacing the F-14 with that piece of sh*t) but I think the
Su-37 will be better than the F-22.

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Razgriz, nice pics there Very Happy

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I'm not trying to say that the Flanker is a bad plane, but I'd take the F-22 for a couple of reasons. First, the Flanker has thrust vectoring, but the nozzles look a bit more mechanically complicated than the Raptor's.

The Raptor also has the edge in thrust to weight, sensors and presentation of information, and low observability. One other thing the Raptor has up its sleeve is the capability through data links to fire AMRAAMs without ever turning on its radar. Combine that with its low observability features, and you've got yourself a very lethal package Wink

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Oh no, we didn't forget that the 37 has thrust vectoring. It's just that this is a board dedicated to the Raptor, so that is what we choose to discuss on this thread.

I'm with parrothead. The Flanker sticks out like a sore thumb on radar, and the Raptor has the power to take out several Flankers without ever being detected.

Name any low-observable plane that you can think of. The Blackbird, Nighthawk, Spirit, you name it.

The Raptor has better low-observability than ANY of them. I won't disclose its exact RCS, but believe you me, it is LOW!!!

Suffice it to say that no Flanker or Fulcrum will ever see it, and more to the point, they'll never know what hit them.

Also, having seen the Su-37 demo, and then having seen what the Raptor can do, there's no comparison. The Raptor wins hands down! Very Happy

Oh yeah, and the Super Bug is going to be a great plane. Granted, not as great as the Raptor, but it will do its job better than the Tomcat. Here's some pluses about the Super Bug:

It came into service already having the ability to drop PGMs.
It's lighter and cheaper than the Tomcat.
It has better engines than the Tomcat, or at least, came into service with great engines (unlike the Tomcat). It's got better avionics and is less complex than the Tomcat.
It can carry AMRAAMs
It also has easier maintenance than the Tomcat.

The Tomcat has a cool demo flight, some great patches for your flightsuit, starred in Top Gun, and got 4 MiG kills. Wink

Which leads me to my now infamous line...

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Good points, good forum, the Russian nozzles are definately more complicated and more difficult to maintain than the Raptor's. Anyone on the forum can see this. The question with the SU-37 is are the nozzles in addition to being thrust vectoring/converging-diverging, is, are the nozzles axio-symetric, Pratt has this technology, with what aircraft, I don't know? Axio-symetric are nozzles that move side to side as well as up and down.

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Have you all forgot about Russia's Su-37 that also has thrust vectoring.

Why people keep bringing into disscution a Russian technology demonstrator and compare it with F 22 (already 30 built and in a few months become operational)? At least you could compare it with the Su 30 MKI (18 of this has been delivered to India).

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After seeing deminstrations of its ability to fly low speeds at low altitudes and vis-versa I think it will give the F-22 a run for its money

How many dogfight will take place at 200-300 km/h (that's the speed used for "exotic" maneuvers). You can be sure that for speeds the dogfight take place (0.6 M-1.2 M) the Raptor surpass the MKI in every parameter (instant. turn rate, sustain turn rate, roll rate, controlled angle of attack, acceleration). Not to mention that in supersonic the Raptor has no real challeger.

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The Raptor also has the edge in thrust to weight, sensors and presentation of information, and low observability. One other thing the Raptor has up its sleeve is the capability through data links to fire AMRAAMs without ever turning on its radar

parrothead, totally agree with you, but with one observation: not only the Raptor, but any fighter that has MIDS datalink can launch an AMRAAM without using its onboard radar, by receiving data from AWACS or other fighter (F 15C, F 15E, F-16 (blk 40/42 and 50/52 that have been subject to CCIP), F 18C, F 18E, Tornado, EF 2000, British Harrier; also the Franch Mirage 2000 can launch MICA in this way.

Nothing against Russian fighters, but, the US fighters has an awesome technology and the Raptor give an example of that and the facts that presented parrothead, tc, allenperos and cru. Hey guys, I'm a new member of the website. I'm not in the service or anything like that, at least a civilian pilot, but I'm an F-16 freak! Crazy Pilot

Welcome aboard warbird078, hope to see around the boards. We're all F-16 freaks! We like to approach every aspect of air combat of the F-16, so take a look around and learn as much as you can.

I think these discussion often get to wrapped up in the little hypothetical scenarios of raptors dogfighting russian built fighters but like a couple of comments said before, look at the total package, the F-22 will always win in the real world because 1. Superior pilots 2. Excellent avionics and BVR capability 3. Stealth 4. Interconectivity and other force multipliers like AWACS

In fact i'd even dare to say that a flight of vipers could take on thse new generation russian fighters and win because of those same reasons

It is very apparent, the F-22 is indeed more capable in an ACM engagement against any opponent known. The SU-37 is a good effort, but no avail, the F-22 can out maneuver anything, I've done performance problems concerning the F-22's tighter loops, outrunning the opponent, engaging, close in and far away fire and forget, and for the pilot, his ability to engage, there isn't anything left to be said , it is simply the most the most superior fighter, hands down.

Hi guys, Sometimes i think I'm nuts because I think the F-22 is an overrated Piece of Sh*t that will get blown out of the air if we ever come across a opponent that doesn't have it's head up its A**.
The main reason i belive this is because with modern ECM systems and Antiradar missiles anything that transmits on radar is going to be blown out of the air real quick. And with the F-22 cruising at 65,000 ft and mach 1.2 (if it can actually do that.) it will create an IR signautre that can be tracked. Not to mention the sonic boom that will be created and tracked.
Overall I think the air force would be better of without the raptor. Bang Head

Those who hold with that way of thinking are either jealous or sadly misinformed.

Refer to my above post: I again won't disclose the Raptor's true RCS, but suffice it to say that it will NEVER be detected, not by radar, not by ECM...nothing.

Anti-radar missiles? Yeah, I'm sure those would be a threat to some nation who still flies GCI.

Mach 1.2? LMAO

Umm...No. Try again.

As for the sonic boom, ok, even IF it could be tracked by that, it will be LONG gone by the time they even hear the boom.

Tack on some nifty IR supression stuff and you've got a plane that flies higher, faster (both in dash speed and sustained speed), can detect anything from a longer range than any other fighter, and can fight with never being detected.

And just WHO will be better off without it, you may ask? I think the folks who try to fly AGAINST it will be better off without it! Laughing

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

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Also, having seen the Su-37 demo, and then having seen what the Raptor can do, there's no comparison. The Raptor wins hands down.

Ok, what exactly did you see the Raptor do that would make it win "hands down"?. We've all seen what the 37 can do.

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Russian nozzles are definately more complicated and more difficult to maintain than the Raptor's

I take it that you have worked on them, but they are better than the 22's though. Since they can turn anyway, in any geometrical pattern. When the 22's can only go up,or down.

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I again won't disclose the Raptor's true RCS, but suffice it to say that it will NEVER be detected, not by radar, not by ECM...nothing.

But thats exactly what they said about the F117 also.

Never say never,and impossible is nothing in todays world as we all know it. Look, Im not trying to sh*t on the 22, I think thats a great killing machine.Probably the best for some time. But some are just making it look like its invincible.

ACSheva

Sure you can say eventually the F-22 will be defeated? But how long? Its been 30 + years and the F-15 or Viper arent defeated. You dont honestly think that a bunch of over brained engineers with nothing more fun to do in life than solve complex trigonomatry problems while a physics text book at the same time, arent sitting at home right now thinking about these problems? Of course the AF is already aware of some of the opposition the F-22 will face, and chances are they are already designing counters for it. That is the history of warfare. Untill we see something shoot down the F-15, im not even thinking about anything shooting down an F-22.

It seems that the AF's deepest mystery is coming into question if it really as stealthy or as maneuverable or as fast or as powerful as they say...

But since we are talking about the nozzles... does anyone have any information on the shape of the F-22's nozzles. The YF-22 I saw at WPAFB Museum seemed to have square shaped nozzles. Looked very unusual....

-Aaron

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I take it that you have worked on them, but they are better than the 22's though. Since they can turn anyway, in any geometrical pattern. When the 22's can only go up,or down.

Thurst-vectoring is a small tactical advantage that comes at a very high price. In my opinion, the YF-23 had it right!! Lets face it WWI is over, air superiority will be maintained by who has best BVR capabilty. The serrated exhaust of the F-22 should decrease its EM profile, thus having the real advantage.

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I again won't disclose the Raptor's true RCS, but suffice it to say that it will NEVER be detected, not by radar, not by ECM...nothing.

But thats exactly what they said about the F117 also.

Never say never,and impossible is nothing in todays world as we all know it.

I agree. Current stealth technology won't maintain its advantage forever.

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Sure you can say eventually the F-22 will be defeated? But how long? Its been 30 + years and the F-15 or Viper arent defeated.

Maybe not in air to air. But when a jet is shot down, it has been defeated. And there probably are engineers out there trying to find a way to bring a 22 down. Countries will probably catch up to our sh*t in the near days. I dont think the enemy frankly cares if its an air to air kill, or a SAM kill. They just want a kill.

ACSheva

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 maneuverability