Korea threatens to disqualify F-35

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
Elite 2K
Elite 2K
 
Posts: 2346
Joined: 09 May 2012, 21:34

by neurotech » 22 Aug 2013, 03:36

geogen wrote:First off, Fwiw, It's probably inaccurate to say 'DEWS and FBW' were fully funded by SA alone.
I was suggesting these systems benefited from earlier programs.
geogen wrote:There is no evidence whatsoever that an FY18 F-35A total weapon system cost will be $95m! (maybe an URF cost, minus the engine?)
Unit Flyaway cost, Including engine.

geogen wrote:That said, the uncertainty revolving around a mature, reliable block 3F F-35A being actually available to RoKAF when they apparently require it, (not starting deliveries in late 2020) is unfortunately compounded by the fact that the estimated unit Weapon System Cost reportedly does not fit within RoK's procurement budget.
Korea could get the jets earlier than "late 2020s", but not starting deliveries in 2018. I suspect we'll see a second program to replace the F-16s, which may be favorable to the F-35 cost and schedule.


Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 8407
Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
Location: California

by SpudmanWP » 22 Aug 2013, 06:22

geogen wrote:There is no evidence whatsoever that an FY18 F-35A total weapon system cost will be $95m! (maybe an URF cost, minus the engine?)

That is what is in the FY2018 budget for "Flyaway Unit Cost". The key question is will Congress grow a spine and support the program.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."


Elite 1K
Elite 1K
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: 16 Feb 2013, 08:04

by lookieloo » 22 Aug 2013, 06:54

SpudmanWP wrote:That is what is in the FY2018 budget for "Flyaway Unit Cost". The key question is will Congress grow a spine and support the program.
Let's see... LRIP-7 F-35As are already under $100 milion w/o engine...


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 7505
Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

by XanderCrews » 22 Aug 2013, 08:11

discofishing wrote:Well, if Boeing gets this deal for South Korea, things will be VERY exciting.


why?


I'm losing more faith in the F-35 program as time moves on. In the near future air defense networks will be distributed multi-spectral target nodes. Not sure the VLO designs are going to be as safe as everything thinks.


Why, again?


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 7505
Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

by XanderCrews » 22 Aug 2013, 08:26

geogen wrote:Furthermore, it's been mentioned that another force-multiplying advantage would be to retrofit some of the RCS-reducing applications (CWB, inlet blockers and possible coatings) to existing F-15K platforms. Hence, a justified 'hassle' afterall.


I guess we differ on if that "justifies the hassle" I think our definitions of "force multiplier" also differ. Hard to imagine that the only way SK could get a CWB and an inlet blocker is to spend 7.4 billion with Boeing. I'm sure that was a "force multiplying advantage" they could have developed themselves.

There is no evidence whatsoever that an FY18 F-35A total weapon system cost will be $95m! (maybe an URF cost, minus the engine?)


You might want to sit down then.

We also have yet to see exactly what an F-15SE costs in 4 years and its features, and you are already promoting it as "justified" and a "force multiplier" double standards are fun.


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 28404
Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
Location: Australia

by spazsinbad » 22 Aug 2013, 09:42

Coupla stories about 'doubts' about 'F-15whatchamecallit stelph'. Read 'em if ya got 'em....

Controversy escalates over purchase of new jet fighters:
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20130820000865
&
The fighter jet puzzle: http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/new ... id=2976483


Banned
 
Posts: 3123
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 15:28

by geogen » 22 Aug 2013, 11:01

F414euro,

Rest assured, I've been critical of the F-15SE-lite/F-15K++ path as well. I'm more in the camp of purely wanting RoK et al of simply getting the best possible, cost-effective and reliable deal overall to fill their respective requirements. As such, I'm truly not loyal to one platform or the other in their case and have also been saying it's probably wise to consider a total FX-3 review of specifications and requirements.

Yep, probably start over, untimely and undesirable as it is - perhaps delaying for a max of 6-9 months (i.e., first delivery in early 2018). And who knows, perhaps it might even end up involving a 'mix' of platforms, e.g., perhaps an advanced FA-50+ to augment the contract and keep costs down...and maybe even to include an unmanned component??

Regardless, something will seemingly still need to give with the current $7.5B 'bid' process vis-a-vis F-15K++/SE and it being sufficient to fulfill requirements as is. Don't get me wrong, the F-15K+ which is essentially a baseline F-15SA avionics-wise, but with upgraded radar set, would likely be a fine 'high-end' next-gen platform for any customer fortunate enough to acquire (sure, even USAF). However, it just seems as if there might be some discrepancies with this particular deal, in the form of whether they come with ANY eo/ir or IRST type apertures (as Typhoon and F-35 employ) and whether or not the CWB is actually included in this otherwise acceptably priced $124m per unit buy, or merely the R&D? e.g., I'd personally assume that the 'complete' F-15 weapon system offering was going to come equipped with at least some basic MAWS system and the external IRST piece (even if not included on a 1:1 ratio of jet platforms), to fulfill the requirement of for a credible a2a role. in my humble opinion.
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 28404
Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
Location: Australia

by spazsinbad » 23 Aug 2013, 13:38

Korea Favors F-15 Silent Eagle Fighter Over F-35, Typhoon 22 Aug 2013 Chris Pocock AINonline
"The Republic of Korea seems set to launch the F-15SE Silent Eagle, by confirming Boeing as winner of the F-X III contest for 60 more combat aircraft....

...Boeing, Eurofighter and Lockheed Martin all said this week that they had received no official notification on the outcome of the F-X III contest. Yonhap said that “a final decision on whether to accept or reject the sole (remaining) candidate” will be made in mid-September....

...Compared with the F-15K, the F-15SE has stealth features such as conformal weapons bays that can be converted to carry fuel, and surface treatments. It also has the Raytheon APG-63 (V)3 AESA radar, a digital flight control system and a new digital electronic warfare system (DEWS).

Boeing flew a development aircraft with some of these features in 2010 and was bullish about the Silent Eagle’s prospects in the Korean competition last year. According to Yonhap, Boeing dropped one of the Silent Eagle features–canted tails for reduced radar cross-section–“to meet Seoul’s tight budget and delivery schedule.”...

...Boeing is offering the Silent Eagle as a direct commercial sale at an undisclosed price. But the aircraft’s radar, DEWS and various other avionics are being offered under FMS terms, at a cost of $2.4 billion. Boeing told AIN that it had offered “an extremely capable, low-risk and price-competitive solution that can be delivered on a schedule that meets Korean requirements, (including) a comprehensive offset program.”

If the deal is confirmed, the 60 Silent Eagles will be delivered between 2017 and 2021."

http://ainonline.com/aviation-news/2013 ... 35-typhoon


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 7720
Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

by popcorn » 24 Aug 2013, 07:08

Warfighters vs. Beancounters... what are the chances they push the reset button? Nothing would surprise at this point..

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 91.xml&p=2

South Korean Fighter Order: AF Backs F-35
By Bradley Perrett, Bill Sweetman, Amy Butler

August 26, 2013


Boeing's F-15SE Silent Eagle has been selected as the only qualified bidder in South Korea's F-X Phase 3 competition for 60 fighters—but the country's air force is lobbying to overturn the decision in favor of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

A win in South Korea would extend the F-15 production line into the next decade and launch an improved version that could compete for future fighter requirements in the 2020s. That outcome seems likely following the decision of the South Korean purchasing authority, the Defense Acquisition Program Agency (DAPA), to eliminate first the F-35 as too costly and then the Eurofighter Typhoon for a bidding irregularity—although EADS, representing the consortium in the South Korean deal, disputes DAPA's decision.

A cross-government committee chaired by Defense Minister Kim Kwan-jin will meet next month to rule on DAPA's decision. The review group will include air force officers, a member of the parliament's defense committee, an official from the finance ministry and the heads of DAPA and the Agency for Defense Development, which wants to lead indigenous industry in the development of its own stealthy fighter, the KF-X (AW&ST April 29, p. 46).

The finance ministry may back DAPA's fiscally conservative choice, but the air force has already shown its colors in fighting for the F-35...


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 7505
Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

by XanderCrews » 24 Aug 2013, 07:37

Wow. Thanks for sharing, I avoid Avweek unless its posted here


Elite 1K
Elite 1K
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: 16 Feb 2013, 08:04

by lookieloo » 24 Aug 2013, 07:49

popcorn wrote:Warfighters vs. Beancounters... what are the chances they push the reset button? Nothing would surprise at this point...
As I predicted earlier, the ROKAF is unhappy that DAPA came back with "magic beans," but what else could they have expected? The inane rules of the competition were obviously a crudely-disguised attempt to bring down the F-35's price, and LM/DoD didn't fall for it. Unfortunately, the Koreans neglected to leave themselves an honorable way out; and now Boeing has them by the shorthairs. Their only options now are: (1) Pay top dollar for another F-15 and accept inferiority to their neighbors, (2) Break their own rules and look foolish, or (3) cancel the whole thing and face a long delay.

Given the Asian necessity for saving-face and the fact that they really need to replace some very old planes, I'm guessing they'll still buy the F-15.


Elite 1K
Elite 1K
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: 16 Feb 2013, 08:04

by lookieloo » 24 Aug 2013, 07:54

XanderCrews wrote:Wow. Thanks for sharing, I avoid Avweek unless its posted here
Why?


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 7720
Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

by popcorn » 24 Aug 2013, 12:33

It doesn't get any simpler.



http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -F-35.aspx

The Future Fight and the F-35

As Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh visited airmen in Hawaii and at Kadena AB, Japan, this week, he emphasized that the service is committed to seeing the F-35 program to fruition, as the fifth generation fighter's success has great implications for the Air Force's role in future conflicts. "The F-35 is flying, it is a real thing, and progress is real," he said. Several countries, including Russia and China, are working on fifth generation fighters, he said, and even if the United States does not go to war with these countries, it will inevitably have to confront the military technology they sell to others. Extending the service lives of fourth generation aircraft, and even supplanting the force structure with generation "4.5" fighters, does not solve the problem. "When a fifth generation fighter meets a fourth generation fighter—[the latter] dies," said Welsh. "We can't just dress up a fourth generation fighter as a fifth generation fighter; we need to get away from that conversation," he said.


Elite 1K
Elite 1K
 
Posts: 1243
Joined: 16 Feb 2013, 08:04

by lookieloo » 24 Aug 2013, 12:52

popcorn wrote:As Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh visited airmen in Hawaii and at Kadena AB, Japan, this week, he emphasized that the service is committed to seeing the F-35 program to fruition, as the fifth generation fighter's success has great implications for the Air Force's role in future conflicts. "The F-35 is flying, it is a real thing, and progress is real," he said. Several countries, including Russia and China, are working on fifth generation fighters, he said, and even if the United States does not go to war with these countries, it will inevitably have to confront the military technology they sell to others. Extending the service lives of fourth generation aircraft, and even supplanting the force structure with generation "4.5" fighters, does not solve the problem. "When a fifth generation fighter meets a fourth generation fighter—[the latter] dies," said Welsh. "We can't just dress up a fourth generation fighter as a fifth generation fighter; we need to get away from that conversation," he said.
Well, Boeing's management would be criminally negligent if they didn't at least try; and FWIW, upgrades for F-15s and Superhornets are still a good idea.


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 7720
Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

by popcorn » 24 Aug 2013, 13:01

lookieloo wrote:
popcorn wrote:As Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh visited airmen in Hawaii and at Kadena AB, Japan, this week, he emphasized that the service is committed to seeing the F-35 program to fruition, as the fifth generation fighter's success has great implications for the Air Force's role in future conflicts. "The F-35 is flying, it is a real thing, and progress is real," he said. Several countries, including Russia and China, are working on fifth generation fighters, he said, and even if the United States does not go to war with these countries, it will inevitably have to confront the military technology they sell to others. Extending the service lives of fourth generation aircraft, and even supplanting the force structure with generation "4.5" fighters, does not solve the problem. "When a fifth generation fighter meets a fourth generation fighter—[the latter] dies," said Welsh. "We can't just dress up a fourth generation fighter as a fifth generation fighter; we need to get away from that conversation," he said.
Well, Boeing's management would be criminally negligent if they didn't at least try; and FWIW, upgrades for F-15s and Superhornets are still a good idea.


Maybe it will carry more weight translated into Korean. :)


PreviousNext

Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests