Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

joost · by **joost** » 31 Mar 2013, 09:18

Not to mention training level, tactical doctrine, developed teamwork, ground support/Awacs support, EW support, missile reliabilty and so on.

That is the whole point of warfare: it is not about the performance of one plane against the others. The developed tactics and supporting assets are as important as the aircraft itself.

One mistake often made by some countries is only investing in jets and tanks and completely ignoring the important logistic and support functions.

So I think those x against Y discussions are pointless: its like trying to compare the kill ratio of a M-16 to a AK-47, without taking into account any circumstances. While in reality the guy with the AK-47 is nowhere when in real combat he is confronted with a Spectre. And so it is with air combat. Singling out a asset and try to find out which is best is pointless, because duals without any influencing circumstances or assets will not happen. The Red flag excersises are there to give training value, and the actual proof is in real combat.

XanderCrews · by **XanderCrews** » 31 Mar 2013, 19:41

nawcadabe wrote: I truly think Russia will be operating its pak-fa well before any f-35 is fit for combat.

That would be pretty amazing. the Marines are planning to deploy F-35Bs to Japan by 2017, so the PAKFA has 4 years...

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 31 Mar 2013, 20:48

F-35B IOC is with Blk2B... in less than two years or so.

What's the Pak-Fa's IOC plans again?

hornetfinn · by **hornetfinn** » 02 Apr 2013, 14:03

nawcadabe wrote:If I recall, the mig-31 was the first operational AESA radar in the world that has the capability to scan such a vast area. As a matter of fact the plane was built around that radar. So if you think that the Russians do not have a good radar going into their 5th gen fighter then you need to check yourself to the fact that Russia knows what they are going against in the F-22 and bet your ars they are going to have some impressive goodies in their new fighter. Now everyone knows how the f-35 has networking and sensors and a software package that IF it ever pans out by the time all 2,000 f-35's are off the assembly line, what good is it going to do against another STEALTH fighter? You think that the Russians have not come up with ways to spot a stealth fighter such as an f-22? Either way the f-35 will be the bulk of our frontline fighters, there will be HOBS missies in the pak-fa, the us 5th gen aircraft do not have this. And don't say f-35 because if you mount a missile under the wing there is no point in having a stealth fighter in the air. Don't forget the F-35 is not exactly invisible to radar, it may be harder to detect at distance for some radar systems but its design is flawed to the point of not being able to retain the stealth of an f-22. I truly think Russia will be operating its pak-fa well before any f-35 is fit for combat. We shall see.

MiG-31 doesn't have AESA radar, but rather has a PESA radar. It did have first such radar in any fighter aircraft, but the original radar was not that impressive (except in size and power). Detection range and multiple target capability was not that good for such a huge and powerful radar. Similar and better capabilities were achieved in western radars that were fraction the size.

zealousmule · by **zealousmule** » 13 May 2013, 02:22

Let's remember that the F-35 is from the JFS program. What does JSF stand for? Joint STRIKE Fighter. The F-35 is a strike fighter, it may be able to execute A to A combat but it obviously won't be very effective as that's not what it is meant to do. So as a Strike Fighter F-35 > PAK FA, and for A to A combat F-35 < PAK FA.

hornetfinn · by **hornetfinn** » 13 May 2013, 07:26

zealousmule wrote:Let's remember that the F-35 is from the JFS program. What does JSF stand for? Joint STRIKE Fighter. The F-35 is a strike fighter, it may be able to execute A to A combat but it obviously won't be very effective as that's not what it is meant to do. So as a Strike Fighter F-35 > PAK FA, and for A to A combat F-35 < PAK FA.

Well, there are a lot of Strike Fighters that can more than hold their own in A/A combat. Fighters like F-15E Strike Eagle, F/A-18 are Strike Fighters and both are rather good in air to air combat. A lot of modern aircraft are multirole aircraft with rather good capabilities in both A/G and A/A. F-16 was first designed as light day fighter and ended up being mostly ground attack aircraft (with considerable air to air combat capability, though) and could be described as a strike fighter. It's also not given that an aircraft designed only for certain role will be superior in that role. For example Su-27 is a pure interceptor and F-15E is a strike fighter and they are pretty much contemporaries. F-15E is definitely a superior air to air platform also, mostly due to having much superior avionics and sensors.

cywolf32 · by **cywolf32** » 13 May 2013, 14:56

Hey newboy, even the F-22 is a "strike fighter" since you missed the fact that it can also carry bombs and at one point was going to be classified as the F/A-22 because of it. The days of single type platforms is over buddy. Think phone vs. smartphone. Which would you choose?

zealousmule · by **zealousmule** » 16 May 2013, 00:11

I am full aware that the F-22 can carry 2 JDAM's or 8 GBU-39 small bombs, ,much like how the standard F-15 has a largely unused ground attack option. However both are classified as and will mostly be air superiority fighters, much like the F-35 will most likely be used mostly for strike operations. I did also note the F-35 can carry out air to Air missions, but against something as new and maneuverable as a PAK FA? come on, there's no comparison. Despite both being claimed as "multi-role fighters" which would you rather have for air to air and which would you rather have for a strike mission. they may be able to carry out several different operations, but there is one each excels at. Comparing the f-35 and PAK FA is like comparing a bowling ball and a basket ball. Can you toss a bowling ball into a basket ball hoop? Sure you can, you can just toss a basket ball better, or can you roll a basket ball into bowling pins? Of course, but a bowling ball will get the job done easier.

count_to_10 · by **count_to_10** » 16 May 2013, 02:06

If by "no comparison", you mean that the F-35 will be shooting down the PAK FA before even being detected by it's target.

JetTest · by **JetTest** » 16 May 2013, 02:30

Every now and then I cannot fight the compulsion to comment: If all you know about any of the current development programs, Russian and Chinese included, is what you read on the Internet or hear on radio and tv, even from "official" sources, you are extremely deluded to even imagine to be able to draw conclusions as to superiority of one over the other in a given role. Public releases barely scratch the surface. Dream on....

delvo · by **delvo** » 16 May 2013, 04:20

zealousmule wrote:I did also note the F-35 can carry out air to Air missions, but against something as new and maneuverable as a PAK FA? come on, there's no comparison. Despite both being claimed as "multi-role fighters" which would you rather have for air to air and which would you rather have for a strike mission. they may be able to carry out several different operations, but there is one each excels at.

The designers' intention to specialize for one job more than another is only one factor here. Another is the technological resources available to the designers.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 16 May 2013, 10:20

Australia heaps praise on F-35, says rivals years behind 16 May 2013 Rob Taylor

"CANBERRA, May 16 (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin Corp is well on the way to fixing the F-35s performance and helmet problems, Australian military chiefs said on Thursday, rejecting criticism the troubled jet will be overmatched by newer Russian and Chinese aircraft.

In testimony to parliament on the F-35, for which Australia is one of the largest international buyers with plans for up to 100, Australia's air force chief Air Marshal Geoff Brown said rivals were years behind the Lightning II's development.

Critics of the F-35 have predicted the aircraft, for which many performance data are classified, will be outflown by emerging aircraft like Russia's Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA and China's J-20, as well as existing fighters like the Su-35, citing computer modelling of known abilities.

"Let me tell you, I don't think that they have the level of stealth that's available in U.S. fifth generation aircraft, and it's by a significant factor," Air Marshal Brown told lawmakers.

"Both PAK FA, J-20 and J-31 are possibly where we were in excess of 10-12 years ago in their development time frames, so all those aeroplanes have still got a long, long way to go," Brown said...."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100741760

zealousmule · by **zealousmule** » 16 May 2013, 14:16

Ok, maybe I'm missing something here. I'm just going to accept defeat and say F-35 wins, you guys have more than proved me wrong.

indochina · by **indochina** » 14 Jul 2013, 05:12

SAP-14 = Su-35S

SAP-518 = Su-30MK

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 14 Jul 2013, 09:42

zealousmule wrote:Ok, maybe I'm missing something here. I'm just going to accept defeat and say F-35 wins, you guys have more than proved me wrong.

You seem to disregard the fact that the intent with the F-35, is that in A2A it was to be second only to the F-22, in addition to its superior A2G capabilities. Don't confuse names, with capabilities. That leads to poor assumptions.