Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

I think the MiG-29A is better than the F-16A/B. It has some BVR capabilities, and R-73 missles when we have dogfight.

But when we put AMRAMM on F-16 (I am speaking about either older C/D versions, or A/B ADF, or A/B MLU), Viper will always beat MiG-29A. But newer MiGs (for example MiG-29SMT) are comparable to older F-16C/D (Block 20/25/30/32) and SMT2 with Zuk-M radar is significantly better that some F-16C/D. Only the F-16C/D with APG-68V9XM can beat every Fulcrum. F-16 has also got more A2G abilities (larger number of weapons etc.)

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I dont think that you can compare the "old"C/D models with the new SMT Mig at all. They are very different airframes. Their SMT is equiped with a better radar, and also has more weapons (Kh-25,29 ground attack missiles, guided bombs KAB-500 -Kh-31A,B, Kh-35E,antiship missiles,antiradar missiles, and AA-10 Alamo, AA-12,and also the R-73M. Also many of those weapons do have a longer range, than the 16's arsenal.

And still the HMS capability on the 29 is a pretty clever idea, it can be very lethal if the Mig driver is a good one. In my opinion their 29 does have an edge on the 16.

Shev

I think it depends on SMT's version. If you compare SMT-2 with Block 30, MiG would win the fight. But, the opponent is the most commonly used SMT-1 (without Zhuk radar, it has only the modernized N-019) it's quite comparable to "older" C/D models.

Quote:

Israel downed 2 Syrian MiGs last September over sea
Special to worldtribune.com
Friday, February 11, 2005

Diplomatic sources said Israel Air Force F-16 multi-role fighters intercepted and downed two Syrian MiG-29 fighter-jets last year. The sources said the dogfight took place in September 2004 over the eastern Mediterranean Sea.

This was the first engagement between Israeli and Syrian fighter-jets since the 1980s. The sources said the air battle took place when Israel Air Force fighter-jets buzzed the Syrian city of Latakia, a port used by Iran for the shipment of weapons to Hizbullah.

The Washington-based Reform Party of Syria first provided details of the Israeli-Syrian dogfight. RPS said the air battle took place on Sept. 14, 2004, adding that both downed pilots were rescued by Syrian military helicopters, Middle East Newsline reported.

RPS, quoting a European source, said the Israeli fighter-jets used an Israeli-origin Python-4 air-to-air missile to down one of the MiG-29s. The other Syrian MiG-29 was shot down by a U.S.-origin AIM-9M Sidewinder.

The pilots of the MiG-29s were identified by RPS as Maj. Arshad Midhat Mubarak and Capt. Ahmad Al Khatib.

Diplomatic sources said the Syrian losses led President Bashar Assad to accelerate efforts to procure advanced anti-aircraft systems from Russia.

Syria has requested a range of anti-aircraft systems, including the SA-18, TOR-M1, S-300PMU2 and the S-400 systems.

The most likely Russian sale to Damascus is that of the SA-18, the sources said. They said Russia would supply the first SA-18 short-range systems ? either directly or through a third country ? within several months.

In January, Russia and Syria ? overriding objections from Israel and the United States ? agreed on the sale of the SA-18 to Damascus. Russian officials said the sale of the SA-18 would not violate any international arms agreement.

"Russia has cooperated with Syria for decades, and my country is convinced that Syria has a strong right to get defensive weapons," Russian ambassador in Tunisia Aleksei Tserub said.

Source: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribun ... 05625.html

Uh, how about this? Two more to the Viper.

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

EriktheF-16462,

I don't remember reading this claim by the IDF/AF. I did a search and Google only closest return leads to the mentioned Reform Party of Syria (RPS) site. And the article could not be located under the September 2004 archives. Do we have alternate reports on the incident? Shocked

Pumpkin, you can go here. Note the right side, some words would be highlighted.

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

DeepSpace wrote:

Pumpkin, you can go here. Note the right side, some words would be highlighted.

Thanks DeepSpace, by any chance, we have report from alternate sources?

cheers,

A concrete link would be great, to confirm it.

Thats great news. I just wonder how many minutes those 29 drivers had in the actual cockpit. The Jewish pilots as we know are some of the worlds finest, those Syrians would of never had a chance against the Jews even if they were in a supped up 37-22.Just shows that profieciency in a jet will help, to win the battle. Still this does not take anything away from the 29 as a whole jet.

Have a great day boys

Shev

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribun ... 05625.html

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Thanks again DeepSpace! Sounds like a recon run. I guess this is asking too much, but I would really like to read about the details,...the mission, the loadout, the encounter etc. Then again, now that it is de-classified, hopefully IAF magazine will have the full report. Wink

cheers,

I don't understand how F-16 could beat MiG-29 in close-combat. Either Syrian pilots are poor-skilled, or Israelis are very well (I think so), or they didn't have R-73s with helmet-mounted sights, or the tactical situation was very bad. Python-4 is quite comparable to R-73 but AIM-9M is much worse...

The victory of dogfight depends on many factors, and I think IAF's F-16s have the advantage in most of them:

1. The numbers: 2 versus 2, equal.

2. The size of the fighters: F-16 is smaller. During the dogfight, the fighter with smaller size is usually harder to be found and located.

3. The training and the skill of the pilots: the IAF should be much better.

4. The missile and HMD for dogfight: the Isreal's HMD and Python IV has been better than the Russian HMS and R-73, and the HMS & R-73 that the Russia sold to Syria should be the down-grading ones, which extended the gap of the SRAAM's capability between the F-16s of IAF and the Mig-29s of Syrian AF.

5. When the HMS + R-73 is a powerful system of dog-fight for MIG-29. on the other hand, the design of the basic MIG-29's cockpit is poor. After locking the target, the pilot of basic MIG-29 has to switch on eleven bottons before shooting the R-73, and this reduces the advantage of HMS + R-73 greatly.

kubam4a1, see the last post on page seven of this thread. The article covers all of your points and explains how the helmet mounted sight and R-73 aren't the end of BFM and why the Viper drivers aren't worried about the MiG-29.

toan wrote:

5. When the HMS + R-73 is a powerful system of dog-fight for MIG-29. on the other hand, the design of the basic MIG-29's cockpit is poor. After locking the target, the pilot of basic MIG-29 has to switch on eleven bottons before shooting the R-73, and this reduces the advantage of HMS + R-73 greatly.

Great point toan! I don't know about you, but I'd rather keep my eyes on the enemy and my hands on the throttle and stick Wink

!

There's written: " As always, and this applies to any airplane, success depends on who is flying." And I think so. F-15C may be better than MiG (especially when it uses Python 4 and HMS) but MiG-29, if it's flown by good pilot, may be very dangerous to every fighter w/o either AIM-9X or Python-5 or AIM-132...

Oh dear. World Tribune strikes again! This is not a reliable source of information. It appears that it was either a lax day for news at World Tribune or a jounalist will be experiencing a one way conversation with the editor.

Here is the original story as it appeared a few years back. It appears World Tribune has changed the date from "14 September 2001" to "14 September 2004". Note the exact same names of the Syrian Pilots used. Don't be fooled by World Tribune and also by the original story. The original story is dubious and was linked into a 9/11 based accident/incident. Very dubious.

"The Knife Fight

By September 2001, the situation detoriated further, especially so after the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, which made both the SyAAF and the IDF/AF extremely nervous. Exactly this provoked the so far heaviest incident in the recent history of Syrian-Israeli aerial clashes.

On 14 September 2001, an IDF/AF Boeing 707, equipped for SIGINT-reconnaissance, was on a mission along the Lebanese and Syrian coast, collecting Syrian defense informations, monitoring foremost telecommunications and radar tags in the Tarabulus (Tripolis) and Hamidiyali areas. The plane was underway at 520 knots and [Link pending approval], and escorted by two F-15Cs, at least one of which carried the newest Python [Link pending approval] air-to-air missiles.

The IDF/AF flew similar missions in the area at least twice a week for quite some time, and ? as usually ? the SyAAF scrambled two interceptors to shadow the ?ferret?: the Syrians would always monitor the operations of Israeli reconnaissance aircraft, sending either MiG-23s from Abu ad-Duhor AB, or ? less often ? MiG-29s from Tsaykal, forward deployed at al-Ladhiqiyah, would get the honor to fly such missions over the Mediterranean Sea. So far, the Syrians have always taken care to stay at least some 20 kilometers away from Israeli planes, and never showed any interest in attacking the Israelis.

But, on this day, at 0914hrs, the two MiG-29s sent to shadow the Boeing 707 suddenly turned towards the Israeli aircraft and increased their speed. For the pilots of the two Israeli F-15s in escort this was not only surprising, but also an obviously aggressive maneuver. Due to the short range, there was no time to ask questions: the MiGs turned towards the Israeli planes in aggressive manner, and could open fire any moment.

The leader of the F-15-pair ordered the Boeing to instantly distance from the area and engage ECM systems, and then called his ground control for help and reinforcements (as a result of this call, six more F-15s and six F-16s were scrambled, along a single Boeing 707 tanker). Moment later, he warned the Syrian MiG-29 pilots on the international distress frequency to change their course. As the MiGs failed to response, the Eagles moved into attack.

One of the F-15s attacked the lead Syrian MiG-29 from above, closing directly out of the rising sun, and launching a single Python [Link pending approval] from an off-boresight angle of 40 degrees. The missile guided properly and hit the MiG above the left wing, immediately setting it afire. The other MiG-29 banked hard right, apparently heading back to Syria, but it was too late, as the second F-15 was already too close: the pilot launched a single AIM-9M Sidewinder from a range of only 500 meters. The missile slammed into the target, crashing it into the sea.

Both Syrian pilots, Maj. Arshad Midhat Mubarak, and Capt. Ahmad al-Khatab, ejected safely and were recovered by Syrian ships. The names of the involved Israeli F-15-pilots remain unknown."

Tam

Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

MiG-29 vs F-16