Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Hello fellows

this is something that General Jumper said of the Russians last week. Its from www.af.mil

The Russians have built next-generation surface-to-air missiles that many nations in the world are now adding to their inventory, General Jumper said.

?The Russians never got out of the fighter-building business. They are delivering aircraft to nations around the world that outperform anything else we have -- except the Raptor,? he said.

Do you all agree with that last statement? Opinions?

ACShev

F-16.net Sponsor

This is true but he is wrong about the Raptor. Everybody seems to think that the raptor is the best because it is Stealthy and can supercruise.

First off all stealth does is make it harder for a radar to detect a fighter. It DOES NOT make it invisible.

Second off supercruiseing degrades a fighters manuverabilty thus making it MORE vulnerable.

danhutmacher wrote:

First off all stealth does is make it harder for a radar to detect a fighter. It DOES NOT make it invisible.

Second off supercruiseing degrades a fighters manuverabilty thus making it MORE vulnerable.

True on both counts..for the run-of-the-mill strike/fighter. But the Raptor is advanced enough that it has ways to take full advantage of point 1 (which I won't get into here Wink

) and to improve upon point 2. The CTF at Eddie is at work on the flight envelope to add normally subsonic manuevers to the supersonic regime.

I'll give you one of my favorite quotes in fighter aviation...

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart will bring success to any Fighter aircraft, no matter how advanced it may be." -Adolf Galland

Or to put it more simply

"The crate matters little, it's the man inside that counts."

Quote:

First off all stealth does is make it harder for a radar to detect a fighter. It DOES NOT make it invisible.

Second off supercruiseing degrades a fighters manuverabilty thus making it MORE vulnerable.

True, stealth only makes it harder to see the jet, but a flight of Eagles still can't see the thing before they all get waxed. In some ways, I really wish I knew just what you have to do to detect a Raptor (other than visual), but I'm glad we're keeping them a secret for now...

About that more vulnerable part... First, you have to detect it. Second, you have to lock it up. Let's just say that the first part ain't easy, but assuming you do detect it. Now you're probably really close, so you'd better pray that your g-suit is hooked up right 'cause you're in for a wild ride trying to get on his 6 Twisted Evil

! Let's see, 2 engines with 35,000 lbs thrust each, MAX takeoff weight of around 60,000 lbs... sounds like it'll go vertical to me Wink

! So now the Raptor's got the thrust to weight advantage. He's also got that spiffy new thrust vectoring system and some really nifty new control software, so he's prolly gonna outmaneuver you if he's been trained right Smile

. Last, but certainly not least, he's got that all new whiz-bang AIM-9X with the JHMCS Very Happy

! So now you're in a knife fight in a phone booth with a ninja Razz

.

Like LinkF-16SimDude said, the Raptor is still in testing and development, so they're still working on putting all the new tactics and abilities together. The Raptor's a whole new ball of wax and we won't know everything about it for a very long time! I wouldn't assume anything about its maneuverability (or lack thereof) at any speed Wink

!

You know, when you have the RCS of an insect, or small bird at best, your speed potentially degrading your maneuverability will not matter much, if at all. You're using that supercruise speed to quickly enter and exit the fight. Remember, we didn't lose any SR-71s to shootdowns, and they were using the same combination of speed and low RCS, albeit with burners, not supercruise. Now, we have a plane that will go nearly Mach 2 without burners (Gen. Jumper had his bird up to 1.7 Mach in supercruise the other day). Basically, it comes down to a) You'll never see it, and b) Even if you did, it will either be long gone, your you'll be in a careening ball of flames by the time it zips in and out of the area. BTW, Gen. Jumper speaks from experience with his comments. This isn't some early Sunday morning, NASCAR pit road "I'm better than you are" posturing. Gen. Jumper is a combat vet, a former Weapons School CC, and has flown against, with, and in Russian builit fighters. He knows what he's talking about when he says the Raptor is the best, and I agree with him. My 2 cents.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Last edited by LinkF16SimDude on Jan 20, 2005 - 03:25 AM; edited 1 time in total

I agree that the supercruise element is an asset. But how do you get around the sonic boom problems supersonic flight entails? Or am I wrong in assuming you have a constant shock wave even if you're above Mach 1? Does the boom only happen at the transonic region and then fade as you get further above the Mach? Perhaps the sliderule jockies at L-M have found a way to reduce the boom effect thru the aero shaping? Hmmmmmmm...... Question

(scratching head)

A big tactical advantage of supercruise is that the faster you're going, the farther the range of your missiles.

"The kinematic range of an AIM-120 AMRAAM, for example, increases by fifty percent as aircraft speed increases from 0.9 to 1.5 Mach" ( http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives ... f22_1.html )

I'm sick of people saying that just because stealth doesn't make a plane 100% invisible, it's worthless. It's called low-observability, not no-observability. I guess it's from years of public relations people saying "it's practically invisible", then when people learn how it really works they're disappointed.

1.7 Mach in supercruise, yowza! I know it's classified, but I'm dying to know what the Raptor's all-out top speed is. All I've seen is where a test pilot said something like "We've taken it up past Mach 2" (paraphrased). I think it's probably not much higher, though, becasue of it's RAM coatings or maybe the canopy.

Another advantage is, how many Russian fighters have supercruise capability? As far as I know none. (If I am wrong , someone please correct me.) Most of the fighters in the world can only dash at speeds like mach 1.7, and higher. Yeah ok, maybe it doesnt go mach 2.5, but how many dogfights occur at that speed? The Raptor isn't just a sprinter like the other fighters in the world, its a marathon runner, in the end when your SU-35 is bingo fuel from trying to chase a Raptor (assuming he detected it at all, and the Raptor has no ammo), he'll be getting the heck out of there sustaining mach 1.7...then you throw in thrust vectoring and the engine power and all the other goodies...I wouldnt wanna be on the wrong end of a Raptor... Cool

PhthaloType wrote:

1.7 Mach in supercruise, yowza! I know it's classified, but I'm dying to know what the Raptor's all-out top speed is. All I've seen is where a test pilot said something like "We've taken it up past Mach 2" (paraphrased). I think it's probably not much higher, though, becasue of it's RAM coatings or maybe the canopy.

The pilot is the limiting factor in the acceleration and top end of the motors.

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 27, 2004 - 10:49 AM Posts: 70

With long duration supersonic speeds over 1.5M you completely degrade every opposing missile system in the world to a extremely short range WVR missile. Unless you're stuck to head on to the merge.

"Thank Gods for the beer!"

Everybody seems to be a fan of the raptor because it is the latest american fighter.
Their are other ways to track a jet besides radar. One is by its ir signature. I would be willing to bet that the F-22 at supercruiseing speed gives off one hell of an ir signature.
also with stealth the radar energy that is reflected has to go somewhere and with Bistatic radars it can still be tracked.
one of my fears with the raptor is that people will be so caught up with its technolgy that it will blind them to the raptors weakness.
another is that at 180 million dollars a plane the air force will not allow its pilots to train so that they use its strengths while minimaizeing its weaknesses.
Those are just two of the problems I see with the raptor. But despite that it could be a good fighter if the air force allows its pilots to train for the worst case scenario every day. Something which history has shown that they will not do.

As far as the sonic boom goes, once you pass Mach 1, you get the sonic boom. No more booms after that, as long as you stay above Mach speed, which the Raptor will. Besides, that will probably happen high enough off the ground that nobody will hear it, and even if somebody did, you're already too late to try to do anything about it.

Top Speed of course is classified, but they will say Mach 2+, and they will also say faster than the Eagle, but they won't say how much faster. I'm guessing faster than an Eagle, but slower than the Foxbat's dash speed. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say 2.6 or 2.7 flying slick in full augmentor, but I really don't have an exact number.

Without delving too far into classified info, as to your bets about the Raptor's IR sig in supercruise, all bets are off. A T-6 Texan II will give off a higher IR signature, and that's no bull$h*t!! Remember, supercruise doesn't require burners. It won't raise the EGT any higher. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in having it.

About the tracking radars...well, when our first wave is a flight of Wild Weasel Vipers, the problem is solved. Besides, what little radar reflection is left will show up as insects, birds, ground clutter, or chaff.

Oh yeah, the Raptor is only a bargain basement value of $133 mil. Razz

The pilots that fly the Raptor are not some FNG butter bars out of UPT, rather they are all experienced in another fighter airframe. Many of these guys already have combat experience, and when they aren't flying, they are flying the sims. Trust me, they'll be trained enough that you won't hear bad news about them on the 6 O'Clock News during combat.

The Raptor will be the best fighter in the sky during combat. Have a little faith dude.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Quote:

Second off supercruising degrades a fighters manuverabilty thus making it MORE vulnerable.

? The raptor is the most maneuvrable plane, both in subsonic (sustained AoA 60 deg., pitch rate 40deg/s!) and supersonic (it can pull 6 Gs at Mach 1.6!; at these speed any other plane will have the maneuvrability of a brick). The advantage to have supersonic is that you push the fight in a region that no one could keep with you.

Quote:

how many Russian fighters have supercruise capability? As far as I know none. (If I am wrong , someone please correct me.) Most of the fighters in the world can only dash at speeds like mach 1.7, and higher. Yeah ok, maybe it doesnt go mach 2.5,

Correct, none of the Su 30 MK(put here any letter you want) can't supercruise, because they are optimised for subsonic. And even if some fighters with variable inlet can go over 2M (F 15 -- 2.5, Su 27/30 -- 2.34), this capability is purely theoretical. Why? Because you must be in clean configuration (no missiles) to do it.

Quote:

Their are other ways to track a jet besides radar. One is by its ir signature. I would be willing to bet that the F-22 at supercruiseing speed gives off one hell of an ir signature.

The F-22 will supercruise at higher altitudes (+ 60,000 ft) where thiner air will induced for less friction thant you believe. Also, even the best IRST in the world (AAN 42 from the F 14D, or the Pirate on the EF2000) can not track a raptor. Detect --maybe,track--no.

Quote:

Their are other ways to track a jet besides radar. One is by its ir signature. I would be willing to bet that the F-22 at supercruiseing speed gives off one hell of an ir signature.

Let's think about this for a couple of seconds. Let's assume that you could detect a Raptor by his IR signature while he's supercruising. Let's also assume that you could track him and develop a firing solution. There's still a problem to consider here. You're tracking him using IR, not radar. That means that you would have to fire an IR guided missile at him because if your radar can't track him neither can your radar guided missiles. So here's the problem - you have to get him within range of your IR guided missiles without him blowing you out of the sky with an AMRAAM from a much greater range Wink

! Good luck Very Happy

!

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

General Jumper on Raptor vs. Russian technology