Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Twintwinsingle is right.

Any fighter, regardless of what it is presents a different challenge (big or small) during DACT. The F-5, for example, presents a very small visual target to anybody fighting it. It may present a problem to the old MK1 eyeball, something you want to be exposed to.

Also, although the F-5 is underpowered, it is a nimble jet. Flown by experienced pilots, it has embarrassed and punished the best out there to include F-15 jocks.

You want to be exposed to as many different airframes as you can. You learn. To totally dismiss anything is the wrong mindset.

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Well said Scorpion...training is training and it's ALL good training. Good observation too on the small visual signal of the Tiger...man that guy's tiny! If he swings your 3/9 and you don't keep your eyes glued to him (or keep driving straight at Vmil), you have big problems.

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Hawk,
Training against 3rd gen assets offers a different problem for your pilots to solve. It's all good training. Plus, training against F-5's is great because you can fly so much! The price tag for a 4-ship of Vipers or Eagles to come and fight you is pretty big....probably more than a 12-ship of F-5's. A 4v12 (even if the 12 are F-5's) is better than a 4v4 any day.

Plus, IMHO, training in the jet (if you can) is always better than in the sim. We like to joke that sitting in the jet reduces your IQ by 50%. It's funny, but it's true, for most of us. I am the superman in the sim. In the jet, flying the identical scenario, I'm still really good Rolling Eyes , but I'm not nearly what I was in the sim building.

I actually meant the operating costs for the F-22, including the maintenance, the support costs if one crashes, etc. If you compare that with the free hours in the simulator, the sim is a much more attractive choice for command and Congress.

Maybe a stupid question, but I'm still a noob.
If a Mig-21 engages an F-22 WVR head-to-head, couldn't the Raptor just engage it's afterburners and hightail out, turn, and fire an AMRAAM at the Mig? (the WVR is if the Raptors can't detect the Mig's)

And can't the Raptor outturn a Fishbed? It's got thrust vectoring nozzles...

Why not (since it's head-to-head) launch a -9 or a -120 and continue on it's merry way?

Hello, here is the BAD guy again.

STOP talking about briefed 1v1 fights. In the real world?

You have some 190 F-22's, about half of them can actually fly? And I have 4.000 Mig 21's and other junk.

Make a guess? In some field in Everybody's Land you will deploy what? Some 8-10 of your superdollar birds? Guess how many I am putting in your oponents hands...

You have 8-10 times 8 misiles, oh, and you have a gun too? What 5 or 6 rounds..... (ha-ha-ha- = meant to be funny here) OK, I"ll give you 4 salvo's on the gun.

OK, start shooting..when my birds come.. and then HIDE as I send in some hundred more, and then some hundred more, and then some hundred more.

Hey, wake up, STOP DISCUSSING BRIEFED AND PLANNED FIGHTS;

I do not brief, I do not plan, I come up to get you... damm, I forgot my Piper Cub with hand handgrenades for your ground forces. But i will paint them all in Pink, just to please you.

But?? I would not use Mig 21's... a bit of a endurance problem. Like the F-104 or the UK Lightning... all pretty short on gas.... Nah, i"ll need some endurance to get to your 8-10 beauties.

Have fun. => Euh, fun briefing that is...

vilters wrote:

And I have 4.000 Mig 21's and other junk.

So, I assume you have 4,000 pilots to go along with those Migs? Have fun paying those guys (and all the maintainers, and fuel for training, and, and, and) while they're just sitting around waiting to be attacked.

I can see the recruiting posters now: "Join the Air Force. If you're lucky you won't be in the first wave!"

vilters wrote:

And I have 4.000 Mig 21's and other junk.

The key word there is junk. The MiG-21 seems to be somewhat difficult to use properly against a modern air force. Watch as I then use a few flights of Bones and Beagles (let's toss in some allied F-4s for added humiliation) to bomb their airbases to hell as my E-3s and Raptors track the surviving bandits back to their bases.

You're assuming that an operationally useful portion of those MiGs are upgraded and even work properly. If I remember correctly, only China, India, Pakistan, and a few others (Zambia!!!!) fly workable Fishbeds.

Additionally, you seem unable to come up with any aircraft to take on our Raptors. There really is no meaning to his rant about prebriefed engagements and numbers.

(Belgium flies around 70 F-16s. We have nearly three times as many Raptors as they do Vipers)

The upgraded MiG-21 Bisons flown by the Indian Air Force are said to be quite decent. They've been upgraded with modern cockpits and avionics. It's got a radar comparable to what's in the F-16 and it's fitted with a pretty good jammer that will give legacy radars some serious problems. Being a small aircraft, it also has a relatively small RCS. They also have helmet mounted sights and are equipped with HOBS missiles. Apparently, these were the most effective aircraft in the Cope India exercises. The IAF pilots managed to ambush F-15s and take them out WVR. Of course, those Eagles were fighting outnumbered and not allowed to use BVR missiles. There's also the claim that this was political stunt. But nevertheless, if flown by good pilots who are using smart tactics, the MiG-21 can still pose some problems.

icemaverick wrote:

The upgraded MiG-21 Bisons flown by the Indian Air Force are said to be quite decent.

They crash and burn quite often. I've heard the Indians are dying to replace them, as they're getting downright dangerous to their pilots.

icemaverick wrote:

The upgraded MiG-21 Bisons flown by the Indian Air Force are said to be quite decent. They've been upgraded with modern cockpits and avionics. It's got a radar comparable to what's in the F-16 and it's fitted with a pretty good jammer that will give legacy radars some serious problems. Being a small aircraft, it also has a relatively small RCS. They also have helmet mounted sights and are equipped with HOBS missiles. Apparently, these were the most effective aircraft in the Cope India exercises. The IAF pilots managed to ambush F-15s and take them out WVR. Of course, those Eagles were fighting outnumbered and not allowed to use BVR missiles. There's also the claim that this was political stunt. But nevertheless, if flown by good pilots who are using smart tactics, the MiG-21 can still pose some problems.

Decent is what, a 5 out of 10? The F-22 is a 37 out of 10. Drunk bastards won't even take "decent" home from the bar with them.

firstimpulse wrote:

icemaverick wrote:

The upgraded MiG-21 Bisons flown by the Indian Air Force are said to be quite decent.

They crash and burn quite often. I've heard the Indians are dying to replace them, as they're getting downright dangerous to their pilots.

I think the planes that are crashing are the non-upgraded MiG-21s. The Bis standard -21s have had their airframes worked on to give them an extra few thousand hours of flying time.

icemaverick wrote:

firstimpulse wrote:

icemaverick wrote:

The upgraded MiG-21 Bisons flown by the Indian Air Force are said to be quite decent.

They crash and burn quite often. I've heard the Indians are dying to replace them, as they're getting downright dangerous to their pilots.

I think the planes that are crashing are the non-upgraded MiG-21s. The Bis standard -21s have had their airframes worked on to give them an extra few thousand hours of flying time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Jalan ... G-21_crash

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... t-sk-nayak

"Notorious reputation for engine failure."

Whistle

Quote:

The upgraded MiG-21 Bisons flown by the Indian Air Force are said to be quite decent. They've been upgraded with modern cockpits and avionics. It's got a radar comparable to what's in the F-16 and it's fitted with a pretty good jammer that will give legacy radars some serious problems. Being a small aircraft, it also has a relatively small RCS. They also have helmet mounted sights and are equipped with HOBS missiles. Apparently, these were the most effective aircraft in the Cope India exercises. The IAF pilots managed to ambush F-15s and take them out WVR. Of course, those Eagles were fighting outnumbered and not allowed to use BVR missiles. There's also the claim that this was political stunt. But nevertheless, if flown by good pilots who are using smart tactics, the MiG-21 can still pose some problems.

Who was flying the F-15s? (American, Saudis, Israelis)
What variant were the Eagles? (F-15C's have better manoueverability than any other than the Raptor; F-15E's have more speed and better radar than most)

Short of the F-22, F-35, and SU-35 family, not a lot of things can kill an Eagle short of luck.
I think it's a political stunt.

And I still think F-15's and F-16's should just be kept, upgraded, and stored in case of an attack, and we're up against, say Russia, China, and the Middle East. (Lots of 3rd and 4th generation aircraft, with some 5th generation (Russia))
That way, we keep numeric equivalency, as well as using air-superiority by using the Raptors as hit-and-run craft (guerilla tactics) or as stealth attack craft.

Just my opinion, but please tell me if I'm wrong. I understand that there isn't the budget for this option, but wouldn't this be the most feasible, as the Eagle and Viper are still extraordinarily capable aircraft.

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Who was flying the F-15s? (American, Saudis, Israelis)
What variant were the Eagles? (F-15C's have better manoueverability than any other than the Raptor; F-15E's have more speed and better radar than most)

They were flown by USAF pilots.

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Short of the F-22, F-35, and SU-35 family, not a lot of things can kill an Eagle short of luck.
I think it's a political stunt.

It's tough to say. According to statements made by USAF pilots, they were surprised by some of the tactics employed by the Indians and they also underestimated the capabilities of their aircraft. We have to remember that the F-15s were fighting outnumbered (4 vs 12) against a variety of different aircraft types. In a series of videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2siH9W5P4E) Col Fornoff of the USAF claims that the MiG-21s were made "practically invisible" to F-15 and F-16 radars thanks to their "Israeli-made" jammers (which are in fact Russian made). He claims that F-15Cs got the better of Su-30MKIs 1v1 at Red Flag. But he also makes it sound like the Indians were winning the 1v1 engagements during Cope India.

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And I still think F-15's and F-16's should just be kept, upgraded, and stored in case of an attack, and we're up against, say Russia, China, and the Middle East. (Lots of 3rd and 4th generation aircraft, with some 5th generation (Russia))
That way, we keep numeric equivalency, as well as using air-superiority by using the Raptors as hit-and-run craft (guerilla tactics) or as stealth attack craft.

Just my opinion, but please tell me if I'm wrong. I understand that there isn't the budget for this option, but wouldn't this be the most feasible, as the Eagle and Viper are still extraordinarily capable aircraft.

We will be keeping a few hundred F-15s, F-16s and F-15Es. Some of them will get AESA radars among other upgrades. It would be nice if we could keep more of them to go along with our Raptors and F-35s, but the money just isn't there. As the Eagles and Vipers age, they're going to be more expensive to maintain. Plus, the F-35 program costs keep going up. It would just be way too costly to keep all our legacy fighters and add the F-35 to go along with our 188 Raptors.

Good to know. Glad North American airspace will be defended well for the next decade. But I still think that the F-15's can outfight MiG-21's, even with the jammers.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Mig-21 vs. F-22