Forum: F-35 Design & Construction

Norway may no longer require drag chute



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PostPosted: Jun 21, 2012 - 11:42 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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If they rigged up some way for the tail-hook to pick up a pair of chutes, could that increase the landing rate?

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spazsinbad
PostPosted: Jun 22, 2012 - 12:07 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Has that idea been patented?

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PostPosted: Jun 22, 2012 - 12:56 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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spazsinbad wrote:
Has that idea been patented?

How would I know? Seems kind of obvious, if it could be made to work.
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spazsinbad
PostPosted: Jun 22, 2012 - 01:04 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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No need to be touchy. Google is your friend re patents 'if it could be made to work'. How about just adding a chute as outlined already in other threads? Problem solved. No? And... the chute may be carried and used anywhere at anytime. From PDF(s) at:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_download-id-14514.html
&
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_download-id-11727.html

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PostPosted: Jun 22, 2012 - 01:33 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Alternately, a hooked chute could be used by any fighter at airfields that they needed it.

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spazsinbad
PostPosted: Jun 22, 2012 - 01:39 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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I don't think you get it. There will be airfields - not Norwegian - that may have ice from time to time or be marginal in length that would require a brake chute (for ordinary use or in an emergency). Having the chute at all times is a real benefit. Remember if used in ordinary operations it will also reduce wear and tear on brakes/and or tyres (blowouts) perhaps. There would be cost / benefit for wear/tear on brake chute.

Otherwise requiring military airfields to have what you propose is way more expensive and not likely to be achieved [considering most airfields have some kind of emergency arrestor gear - able to be used by 'emergency hook' or better (naval) aircraft already].

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PostPosted: Sep 06, 2012 - 07:21 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Not only does Norway want the chute, they are willing to pay for it now instead of waiting for Canada & the Netherlands to help with it.

Quote:
By David Pugliese

Defence Watch

The F-35 is going to be outfitted with a drag chute so it can stop on short runways and on ice-covered runways.

The Canadian Forces, along with the militaries of Norway and the Netherlands, were in the process of funding the installation of the drag chute. They were going to share the cost of the development.

But Norway has decided to move forward and fund the whole project on its own.

Lockheed Martin’s Keith Knotts recently explained the situation to Defence Watch:

“As Norway increased their buy of aircraft from 48 to 52 and then additionally accelerated their buy, they pretty much stuck out in front of everybody else and they agreed they would go ahead and fund the event themselves and the other countries would just have the future benefits of that in a future date when their aircraft are manufactured,” he explained. “Norway has taken the lead and will ensure that drag chute capability is available for not only those two countries but any country that wants to add upper attachments points to the aircraft as well as having a drag chute capability.”
http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/09/06/norway-funds-f-35-drag-chute-for-canada-and-the-netherlands/

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PostPosted: Sep 06, 2012 - 08:22 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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A drag chute is quite handy in the environment of Afghanistan as well. Not only in winter, as well in summer time.
In Afghanistan a jet needs more runway to get airborne because of the climate (thin air)
(Dutch pilots use the brake chutes of their F16’s, as well as Norwegian pilots did use brake chutes when they were stationed in Afghanistan)

Hornet Pilots Get “arrested” in Afghanistan

3rd Marine Aircraft Wing (Fwd) Public Affairs
Story by Cpl. Ryan Rholes

Quote: The Hornets, flown by Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 232 based at Kandahar Air Field, face a rigorous and unforgiving environment, making the arresting gear a possible ‘saving grace’should pilots need it.

Afghanistan’s dynamic, rapid weather patterns and rough environment can cause increased wear on jets. Brakes failures,hydraulic system issues or even bad weather may cause aircraftto divert and take arrested landings.
Arresting gear can provide a safe way for pilots to land without relying on potential faulty brakes, or when critical components of an aircraft have failed.

“Arrested landings are the norm on aircraft carriers, here at the field I have taken an arrested landing on occasion due to hydraulic and braking issues; it’s vital to stopping the aircraft safely in the event of an emergency or short runway,” said Maj. Michael Nesbitt, one of the pilots with VMFA-232 who performed thearrested landings.

http://www.s76586.gridserver.com/downlo ... 011_lr.pdf
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PostPosted: Sep 06, 2012 - 10:56 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Is there any mutual work-share or cross-benefit between the spin recovery chute setup and the short/ice runway drag chute.
Looking for any silver lining here.....
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PostPosted: Sep 06, 2012 - 11:02 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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As indicated in another post the 'spin recovery chute' is being tested on ground already with testing of spin recovery in flight soonish. Getting the drag chute going is whenever - not now. I'll imagine stuff about the difference between a runway drag chute and a spin recovery chute but can only guess that a spin recovery chute needs to be more robust and more fail safe. Others will know more about this most likely.

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PostPosted: Sep 07, 2012 - 04:50 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Spin recovery chute does in fact have more severe design conditions, primarily a much wider and deeper cone angle for deployment. Spin recovery means the chute may be deployed at very high AoA and/or sideslip angles, while the drag chute is deployed at near zero angles, recognizing small AoA and crosswind effects. I don't know drag chute deployment speeds, but spin chute deployment is designed for around 200 kt. Because of high angle deployment, the spin chute will most likely be mounted farther aft and higher to clear vertical and horizontal tails as much as possible.

Those high angles of deployment mean the mounting structure must be strong enough to withstand loads at those angles. If deployed at conditions which generate higher loads than design, either the chute will blow out or the D-ring will fail before the aft end of the airplane is ripped off.
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PostPosted: Sep 19, 2012 - 04:41 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Norwegian vs. Canadian pilots on the drag chute:

"These come from Lt. Col. Sigurd Fongen and Colonel Charles Svensson, both experienced Norwegian F-16 pilots now with the Norwegian F-35 program. In bold are the original views of the CF pilot, with the responses from the Norwegians:

-At altitude, where the temperatures are minus 50 C, they tend to freeze and turn into ice cubes.

Not true – Norway has operated the F-16 with drag chutes in the high north for 30 years and we have not had any such issues with it.

-When you really need them they don’t work/deploy.

Not true – Many Norwegian pilots, ourselves included, have found the drag chute to be a trusted friend when landing on short or icy runways.

-They cause “weather cocking” into the wind and you then slide off the runway by the pull of the chute itself. When that occurs the pilot immediately needs to “emergency jettison” the chute, leaving the pilot is an even more dangerous situation.

Not true – If cross winds becomes an issue, then you simply drop the chute before you normally would. There is no need for an “emergency jettison.” Even if you deploy the chute and only keep it for a few seconds, at least on the F-16, this immediately drops your speed by 50 knots or more, which can be critical when landing on short or icy runways.

-Who is there to “re-pack” them on subsequent requirements? In the north, in particular.

You don’t need a brake chute on every trip, and if you have a frequent requirement for a brake chute you simply store pre-packed chutes in forward locations where they might be needed. The additional logistics for this is minimal, and again, we have done this for decades with little issue. Installing a new chute before a new flight is a relatively easy task.

-Destroys stealth design. Why pay for stealth in the first place then?

Not true – the drag chute for the F-35 will have a design to conform with the body of the aircraft and will have very little effect on its radar signature.

-Little use in a “one runway only” environment resulting in a crosswind environment on landing and therefore of no use.

Not true – Most of Norway’s air bases have been “one runway only” and we have we have been effectively deploying drag chutes on all of them.

-Bottom line: Of no use in the NORAD and northern climates. Simply cannot stake your life on its use.

Not true – bottom line – drag chutes have significant value when operating in the high north, and we have decades of operational experience to prove it. That is why they remain a critical requirement for Norway with the F-35."

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/09/ ... rag-chute/
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PostPosted: Sep 19, 2012 - 05:03 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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PostPosted: Sep 19, 2012 - 05:05 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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maus92 wrote:
Norwegian vs. Canadian pilots on the drag chute:

"These come from Lt. Col. Sigurd Fongen and Colonel Charles Svensson, both experienced Norwegian F-16 pilots now with the Norwegian F-35 program. In bold are the original views of the CF pilot, with the responses from the Norwegians:

-At altitude, where the temperatures are minus 50 C, they tend to freeze and turn into ice cubes.

Not true – Norway has operated the F-16 with drag chutes in the high north for 30 years and we have not had any such issues with it.

-When you really need them they don’t work/deploy.

Not true – Many Norwegian pilots, ourselves included, have found the drag chute to be a trusted friend when landing on short or icy runways.

-They cause “weather cocking” into the wind and you then slide off the runway by the pull of the chute itself. When that occurs the pilot immediately needs to “emergency jettison” the chute, leaving the pilot is an even more dangerous situation.

Not true – If cross winds becomes an issue, then you simply drop the chute before you normally would. There is no need for an “emergency jettison.” Even if you deploy the chute and only keep it for a few seconds, at least on the F-16, this immediately drops your speed by 50 knots or more, which can be critical when landing on short or icy runways.

-Who is there to “re-pack” them on subsequent requirements? In the north, in particular.

You don’t need a brake chute on every trip, and if you have a frequent requirement for a brake chute you simply store pre-packed chutes in forward locations where they might be needed. The additional logistics for this is minimal, and again, we have done this for decades with little issue. Installing a new chute before a new flight is a relatively easy task.

-Destroys stealth design. Why pay for stealth in the first place then?

Not true – the drag chute for the F-35 will have a design to conform with the body of the aircraft and will have very little effect on its radar signature.

-Little use in a “one runway only” environment resulting in a crosswind environment on landing and therefore of no use.

Not true – Most of Norway’s air bases have been “one runway only” and we have we have been effectively deploying drag chutes on all of them.

-Bottom line: Of no use in the NORAD and northern climates. Simply cannot stake your life on its use.

Not true – bottom line – drag chutes have significant value when operating in the high north, and we have decades of operational experience to prove it. That is why they remain a critical requirement for Norway with the F-35."

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/09/ ... rag-chute/


What a staggering difference of opinion or experience. You would not think they talked about the same thing. Having seen how Norwegian pilots use the chute I can testify that they know what they are talking about.

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spazsinbad
PostPosted: Sep 19, 2012 - 05:25 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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I'll assume two different aircraft are being spoken about? The Norwegian F-16 with drag/brake chute and the Canadian ???????? with drag/brake chute? I'll guess the Canucks have experience with Voodoo and Starfighter drag chutes. How different are these to the F-16 chute in use today?

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