Forum: Program and politics

Where is the French plan to build their own CVF?

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spazsinbad wrote:

Where is the French plan to build their own CVF?

I seem to recall reading that if they do build a new carrier it may be a different design from the UK ships as they may opt to go with a nuke reactor.

[UK] Parliamentary Answers – Week Commencing 28th May 2012 Think Defence | June 2, 2012

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/06/p ... -may-2012/

Question m Murphy (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether the operation of two active carriers is budgeted for in his Department’s post 2015 Equipment and Support budget.

Answer Peter Luff (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, Support and Technology), Defence; Mid Worcestershire, Conservative)

holding answer 22 May 2012

A decision on the status of the second aircraft carrier will be made in the next strategic defence and security review in 2015. An £8 billion headroom has been established in the Equipment and Equipment and Support programme over the next 10 years having balanced the Ministry of Defence budget."
&
Question Kevan Jones (North Durham, Labour)

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the Statement of 10 May 2012, Official Report, column 141, on carrier strike capability,

(1) from which year he proposes that the net additional operating cost averaging about £60 million per year will be incurred; and for how many years;

(2) from which budget he proposes that the net additional operating cost will be met.

Answer Peter Luff (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, Support and Technology), Defence; Mid Worcestershire, Conservative)

As stated by the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend Mr Hammond, in his statement of 10 May 2012, Hansard, columns 141-42, on Carriers, the net additional operating costs estimated to be around £60 million relate to the second aircraft carrier. A decision on the use of the second aircraft carrier will be made in the next Strategic Defence and Security Review in 2015."
&
Question Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many pilots who are trained to operate Harriers will be retrained to fly STOVL.

Answer Peter Luff (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, Support and Technology), Defence; Mid Worcestershire, Conservative)

Detailed planning for the training of Royal Navy and Royal Air Force Joint Strike Fighter pilots is currently being conducted. It is too soon to determine specifically how many Harrier pilots amongst existing UK trained pilots will be trained to fly the F-35B variant of Joint Strike Fighter. There will be no shortage of STOVL-experienced pilots with such personnel currently flying other aircraft or attached to flying duties in the US."

'Carrier Waves' Magazine Issue 7, May 2012

F-35B for Queen Elizabeth Class | May 2012

http://www.aircraftcarrieralliance.co.u ... y-2012-LR? (0.8Mb PDF)

"The Government has announced the selection of the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter as the fast jet that will operate from the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers.

The F-35B is a Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) capable aircraft. This means the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers will be built to support them.

Programme Director, Geoff Searle, explained: “The STOVL capabilities of this aircraft call for some specific designs. HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales will be built with a ramp at the bow and we’ll be developing the flight deck with visual landing aids designed specifically to help pilots guide the aircraft safely back down.

“We have plans to develop the ships to support this aircraft, and we are now putting them into action. We will now work with the Ministry of Defence to ensure both ships meet their requirements.”

As a reminder - some factoids about the PaxRiver CVF ski jump:

EAF enables JSF landing anywhere, everywhere Jun 29, 2009

http://www.navair.navy.mil/press_releas ... site_id=15
[NO Longer at this address it would appear?]
Also mentioned on this F-16.net thread:
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... p;p=191141

“...Although the AM-2 matting is serving its purpose as vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) pads and a 1,900 x 96-foot runway for the EAF/STOVL testing, it also doubles as the run-up for a test “ski-jump” used in conjunction with JSF testing for the British Royal Navy. The AM-2 matting and the 12-degree ski-jump ramp were installed at the centerfield area last month [May 2009]....

...The mock ski-jump is 150-feet long, with a 15-foot high “lip” for aircraft launch. These shore-based ski-jump takeoffs will be conducted at varying airspeeds prior to the first UK ship detachment with the F-35B.”

Programme Director's Blog Apr/May 2012
Geoff Searle is Programme Director of the Queen Elizabeth Class.

http://www.aircraftcarrieralliance.co.u ... -blog.aspx

"...Of course the other big news that won’t have escaped your attention recently is the announcement that the Ministry of Defence is to procure the Lightning F-35B variant of the Joint Strike Fighter. This means the Queen Elizabeth Class will be built to support the Short Take off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) jets, with a ramp at the bow and specially designed flight deck. We have plans for the carriers to be built to this specification and we are now working with the MOD to put them into place.

We will keep you all updated on the work, but importantly this decision doesn’t affect any of the construction that has already been accomplished and is underway on both HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales...."

This item is for 'delvo' from top of previous page on this thread: "Every time I see another "decision reversed" article, I think at first that they've gone back..." Very Happy

Government set for U-turn on aircraft carrier By Michael Powell 6 June 2012

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/ ... -1-3919694

"THE government is set to perform another U-turn in the Royal Navy’s £6bn aircraft carrier programme.

The News understands the coalition’s plan to mothball one of the 65,000-tonne warships is to be scrapped.

Instead, both HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales will enter operational service in Portsmouth later this decade – as was originally planned by the former Labour government.

It follows the coalition’s recent backtracking on the type of fighter jets it will buy for the nation’s flagships.

‘Planning assumptions are that both carriers will now enter service,’ a defence source told The News.

The move, to be confirmed in the next defence review in 2015, is being welcomed by the navy as it will offer the UK a continuous, year-round carrier capability....

...An MoD spokeswoman said: ‘We are planning on having the first of the two carriers brought in on sea trials in 2017. The decision on when the second ship will be brought in will be made during the SDSR in 2015.’..."

Don't bother to JUMP! Rolling Eyes

Did some calculations on the tabloid article posted by Spaz on pg 37 regarding cost of deck paint.

If they are going to use the Thermion TH604, then it would cost a princely $7XXk for a 16k m2 deck coat according to cost published on their website . Not exactly fantastically expensive when compared to GBP 6 billion ships.

Best part of all, re-coating only needs to be done on specific 625 m2 landing spots (reducing area of maintenance) which will cost ~$10k per spot which even if done everyday would cost ~$3.7m annually. The "if" is a big if as testing seems to confirm longer life span which was demo-ed on the wasp.

Some more UK 'RUBBERY' Figures for youse... Very Happy

How the Trident replacement and the MoD's £38bn 'black hole' help to subsidise India By William Forbes
PUBLISHED: 23 May 2012 | UPDATED: 14 June 2012

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... l?ITO=1490

"...The number of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters that the MoD planned to buy has been reduced, but the new number has not been published. However, Mr Hammond has spoken of having 12 F-35B STOVL aircraft at sea, and of having a surge ability of 36. That number for each carrier must be supplemented by an attrition reserve, a service reserve (for a rolling maintenance programme), and a training squadron, so we may calculate on around one hundred being bought.

Price? This month the US Air Force contracted to buy twelve of the simpler F-35A variant for a price equivalent to £125 million each. The MoD will pay more than that because it is buying the expensive F-35B STOVL variant, because it is a foreign buyer and will have an overseas marketing contribution added to the basic figure [? QUE?], and because it insists on a British weapons pack and British electronics, all of which will increase the price significantly, certainly by 20 per cent. This produces an estimate of £15 billion, three times the original expectation (which is about par for the MoD's procurement calculations and thus of no surprise)...."

36*2 CVFs = 72
72/80% serviceability =90.
Training/OCU sqn = 12? Could be 100+.

100*GBP 150 m each = GBP15 billion. Sounds right considering Japan's F-35A price (US$10b for 42).

Not surprised if MoD decides to get 50 since isn't the intention to keep just 1 CVF at sea at anytime?

'weasel1962' asked: "...isn't the intention to keep just 1 CVF at sea at anytime?" Now that the CVFs are STOVL it is thought it will be possible (with a decision in 2015 SDSR) to operate the two CVFs in some fashion.

Each CVF is supposed to have an availability of ~300 days (probably max, and this is a figure reported in parliament as well). That means that 4+ months a year = 1 CVF available. The reality is that 300 days could be optimistic.

http://frn.beedall.com/cvf1-04.htm

Would it make sense to have 2 full complements of aircraft that can be used 2/3 of the time or just 1 complement? Normally, imho, most will get 2 sets just in case but with budget constraints, £7.5billion savings from cutting 50xF-35Bs might just be a bit too tempting for the bean counters. Having said that, the original number to be acquired was 138.

Guys, it's the Daily Fail. Nuff said...

Misread your '1 CVF at sea at any one time' question 'weasel1962'. Apologies. I wonder if all the F-35Bs come under RN FAA control (albeit with some RAF pilots for the surges) with mostly RN FAA pilots onboard when 'not surged' what difference that might make to perception of overall numbers of F-35B required? It seemed that when the 'Joint Force Harrier' operated that not much 'deck time' was used with the RAF in charge, they wanted to be ashore. That was the impression I gained (when not really interested at the time - so perhaps that impression incorrect - I recall not many Harrier pilots were night qualified onboard for example).

Not the first to ask. The history and current status can be found in the link below.

http://frn.beedall.com/jca1-1.htm

Forum: Program and politics

UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C