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Yellow13
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 Posted: Dec 17, 2004 - 04:34 AM
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Active Member
Joined: Apr 22, 2004 - 03:40 PM
Posts: 116
Location: Columbus, Ohio
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So one trick... no luck, that still takes skills and this would agree with my statement. Skill is not just a fluke.
Look air combat is no different than the fencing I do (yeah that's right i do mostly foil and epee) for every move there is a counter-move, every attack a counter - attack (the ying and the yag, "wax-on wax-off"  ) I have fenced guys with the one trick skill and they're good. Now like Boyd, some of these guys, invented these tricks, something needs to be said for that. And because I don't think anyone has ever since the Col., handled the stick of a 'hun better. Also it wasn't just that one trick he taught at FWS, just used one to beat EVERYONE who challenaged him.
And yeah he gave into quite a few things on the F-15. Originally he wanted it to be a single jet, light fighter... pure and simple! That idea is what became the original F-16.
Hey, I got to go so message me later if you want to talk about the Col. some more. Later! |
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Sponsor
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 Posted: May 23, 2013 - 5:01 AM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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pirate
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Posted: Dec 17, 2004 - 05:04 AM
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Newbie
Joined: Oct 07, 2004 - 04:09 AM
Posts: 13
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| He was in a talk in the late 60s and got into a shouting match with a Top Gun instructor who didn't agree that energy-maneuverability theory is everything in a dogfight. Top Gun believes that the pilot training plays an important part. |
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Roscoe
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Posted: Dec 17, 2004 - 04:42 PM
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Elite 1K
Joined: Jun 29, 2004 - 09:14 PM
Posts: 1279
Location: Las Vegas
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Yellow13 wrote:
So one trick... no luck, that still takes skills and this would agree with my statement. Skill is not just a fluke.
Look air combat is no different than the fencing I do (yeah that's right i do mostly foil and epee) for every move there is a counter-move, every attack a counter - attack (the ying and the yag, "wax-on wax-off" ) I have fenced guys with the one trick skill and they're good. Now like Boyd, some of these guys, invented these tricks, something needs to be said for that. And because I don't think anyone has ever since the Col., handled the stick of a 'hun better. Also it wasn't just that one trick he taught at FWS, just used one to beat EVERYONE who challenaged him.
And yeah he gave into quite a few things on the F-15. Originally he wanted it to be a single jet, light fighter... pure and simple! That idea is what became the original F-16.
Hey, I got to go so message me later if you want to talk about the Col. some more. Later!
Look, I never said he was not good nor did I ever mention luck. I also doubt he invented the snap roll, but he certainly was the first to use it in the that particular aircraft to gain an offensive advantage like he did. I agree he deserves full credit. What I said and firmly stand behind is one good trick does not earn the title 'best ever'.
As for beating everyone, note that (to the best of my knowledge) he bet folks once to make his point about knowing your airplane and pushing it to its limits. The move works because of surprise. Lets use another sports analogy. I play basketball and have a wicked crossover dribble to a left-handed layup. Works everytime...on a new guy! Once they've seen it, they can usually figure out how to defend it. Does that make me the best ever? As much as I'd like to think so...it ain't so.
As for the Eagle, Boyd got all the blood from that turnip he could. If he had continued the fight on the F-15 he would have been destroyed. There was way too much inertia for him to have any more effect on the design than he did. There would have been no Viper and the Eagle would have been more F-111ish than the plane it is today (depite my love for the Viper, I have to concede that the Eagle is pretty capable). He saved his energy for a fight he had a chance to win. |
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Roscoe
<b>"It's time to get medieval, I'm goin' in for guns"</b> - <i>Dos Gringos</i>
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Yellow13
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Posted: Dec 22, 2004 - 07:15 PM
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Active Member
Joined: Apr 22, 2004 - 03:40 PM
Posts: 116
Location: Columbus, Ohio
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True, I think we can both agree that the F-111, for lack of a better term, sucks... and that all three, Marnies, AF and Navy are better off without it or some copy of it. And as I understood it it was a one time made standing bet for $20, for anyone.
Now as I understand it, it wasn't just the Snap roll. What about the out side roll? Jan., 2, 1967, 85% of the kills made at the Phunc Yen engagement were becuase of it. (Pages 214-215 in Robert Coram's book for details, if you have it handy, and I have a question when they talk about a 'Chappie' in that flight is that THE Chappie James?) |
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Yellow13
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Posted: Jan 11, 2005 - 12:47 PM
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Active Member
Joined: Apr 22, 2004 - 03:40 PM
Posts: 116
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Status: Offline
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| Hey, if I'm wrong about any of this at least tell me... |
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