Forum: General F-35 Forum

popcorn wrote:

I thought I'd read somewhere that DoD intends for NGJ to be the overarching Airborne Electronic Attack Architecture for all services and that individual initiatives, including presumably native jamming capabilities inherent in specific platforms e.g F-22, F-35, were going to be capped eventually.. Idea being that NGJ would be a modular architecture and various aircraft woukd be capable of supporting subsets of the total system.

That is basically what I was told as well.

They are also working on the concept of flexibility in processor module capability, so the load can be shared between hardware computer processor boards. The software is not a single monolithic program, nor is each function handled by a separate physical box. Its almost like a 'virtual cloud' for avionics and mission systems.

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That's possible.

Btw, There is space in the leading/trailing-edge sensor bays to add AESA jammers if the customer wants it. IMHO they should add ESM functionality to a future UAI interface standard to allow easy integration and upgrade of ESM/Jammer capability.

geogen wrote:

Thanks for your interesting inputs, neurotech...

Would you happen to have any personal views on either the Thales AESA based AEA escort/attack pods currently available, or the Elta/Rafale next-gen AEA/SoJ pod reportedly under development? Any impressions on the existing Elta, Rafale, or Elisra pods?

Apparently, The Rafale flew along side US Navy F/A-18F & EA-18G aircraft over Libya.

The Rafale isn't as mature a A/G platform as the F/A-18F, nor does it have the escort jamming capability of the EA-18. The self-protection/EW suite known as SPECTRA is fully integrated, but not quite as mature as the EA-18.

The Thales AESA-based EA pod reflects the reality that having directional control of a EA jammer is significantly more effective than the undirected systems such as the ALQ-99. This would also be effective in smaller jets like the F-5 or F-16 that couldn't fit a large AESA in the nose.

I would assume that NG are working on something similar, that goes beyond the acknowledged NGJ project systems.

On the Israeli side, Elbit/Elisra & Elta makes some pretty effective hardware that is combat proven. I would say that its equal to the US systems in capability and integration on the F-15I & F-16I.

It's interesting that even the Su-30MKI uses an Israeli Elta EL/L-8222 pod. I don't think stand-alone jammers are nearly as effective as integrated EA suites.

Interesting, Neuro... and I guess I was under the impression that at least some Rafale had integrated the Thales EA pod into it' SPECTRA suite. Maybe not.

Anyway, in your personal opinion, which of the above listed systems would probably be the nearest thing to what could be considered a poor-mans NGJ in an upgraded form, and also.. would you know if either the Thales escort pod or any of the above Israeli escort/EA pods are supersonic friendly? The question being... I'm curious if any of the above listed all-in-one pods could be integrated into F-35 (on the centerline station) as an interim 'poor-mans' escort jamming capability and especially if NGJ is delayed beyond 2020?

My guess would be the L-8222 (or similar Elbit/Elisra & Elta pod) as Israel has already expressed the desire to spend money to integrate its own EW gear into the F-35.

Spudman

You're advocating running the EW warfare from a carrier? That's a bit of a silly idea. At the point where the F-35 needs escort jamming, relying on long range data links won't be a very good idea. Basically, it provides a single point of failure for the enemy to attack and I'm pretty sure that any hostile country which requires escort jamming with F-35 strikes will be attacking every communication node around. Hence, local control allows for easier power requirements and lower probability of intercept.

As for the center line NGJ, what I've read indicates that the NGJ's jamming pod as it currently stand will be only for one hemisphere. The Marine variant looks to be more of a classic self defense jammer. The power requirements appear to be more in the signals processing and on board control. NGJ's pods are supposed to be self contained, ie they generate enough power for the transmitting antenna. If the F-35 is constrained on the on-board electronics front, it may not be able to mount the hardware necessary to intelligently and effectively use the jammer.

One thing we don't know is the ability of a F-35's single pilot to multitask on the level necessary to direct jamming operations beyond that of a basic self-defense jammer. An integrated self defense suite most likely has a lower task load and fewer command options than a dedicated EW system. This will only get worse as cyber attacks are integrated further into the EW arsenal. That alone will require at least a dedicated RIO, if not data links (though, as stated above, I doubt that many full scale high bandwidth data links will exist in a future hyper war. Oddly enough, that is a very strong argument for sensor fusion.).

geogen wrote:

Interesting, Neuro... and I guess I was under the impression that at least some Rafale had integrated the Thales EA pod into it' SPECTRA suite. Maybe not.

I'm pretty sure the SPECTRA is not an AESA system, and most Rafale's in service do not have AESA Radar currently. It's only the newest block that has AESA.

geogen wrote:

Anyway, in your personal opinion, which of the above listed systems would probably be the nearest thing to what could be considered a poor-mans NGJ in an upgraded form, and also.. would you know if either the Thales escort pod or any of the above Israeli escort/EA pods are supersonic friendly? The question being... I'm curious if any of the above listed all-in-one pods could be integrated into F-35 (on the centerline station) as an interim 'poor-mans' escort jamming capability and especially if NGJ is delayed beyond 2020?

As funny as it sounds, I think the concern of using a EA pod on a F-35 would be its passive radar signature. The Thales AESA EA pod could probably work on a F-35 with minimal compromise to the stealth. Unlike the ALQ-99, the Thales EA pod has a reduced RCS.

If the F-35 NGJ integration got delayed or completely screwed up, and the USAF wanted the F-35 for the EA role, The next most likely scenario is that the Elta F-35I EA system, could be fitted to US F-35s.

arkadyrenko wrote:

You're advocating running the EW warfare from a carrier? That's a bit of a silly idea.

Not really as that is where command of the overall EW effort is going. While "self protection" is staying with the pilot, the massive amount of data gathered and the real-time analysis thereof can only be properly done off-board.

arkadyrenko wrote:

At the point where the F-35 needs escort jamming, relying on long range data links won't be a very good idea. Basically, it provides a single point of failure for the enemy to attack and I'm pretty sure that any hostile country which requires escort jamming with F-35 strikes will be attacking every communication node around. Hence, local control allows for easier power requirements and lower probability of intercept.

Datalinks are becoming directional, LPI, and SATCOM which all help them stay secure (especially the directional ones).

arkadyrenko wrote:

As for the center line NGJ, what I've read indicates that the NGJ's jamming pod as it currently stand will be only for one hemisphere.

While that is true, I was talking about more of a med-power "self protection" jammer rather than the high-powered NGJ pod. This would allow for full 360 coverage from the centerline station.

arkadyrenko wrote:

The Marine variant looks to be more of a classic self defense jammer.

The Marines plan on the NGJ to replace it's EA-6B Prowlers in the Escort Jammer role, not merely as a self-protection jammer.

arkadyrenko wrote:

If the F-35 is constrained on the on-board electronics front, it may not be able to mount the hardware necessary to intelligently and effectively use the jammer.

The F-35 has a completely empty ICP bay in the rear of the F-35 along with space in the forward ICP bay for upgrades. Internal power/thermal management upgrades are already planed for the Blk4/5 cycle.

arkadyrenko wrote:

One thing we don't know is the ability of a F-35's single pilot to multitask on the level necessary to direct jamming operations beyond that of a basic self-defense jammer. An integrated self defense suite most likely has a lower task load and fewer command options than a dedicated EW system. This will only get worse as cyber attacks are integrated further into the EW arsenal. That alone will require at least a dedicated RIO, if not data links (though, as stated above, I doubt that many full scale high bandwidth data links will exist in a future hyper war. Oddly enough, that is a very strong argument for sensor fusion.).

This goes along with my thoughts on the use of jammers (and "Cooperative EW") on the F-35. The pilot will continue to manage the "self-protection" modes of his EW gear while Carrier (or BACN, AWACS, JSTARS, etc) located operators handle the dedicated attack & detection issues. As computing power grows, so does the ability for F-35's onboard systems to automate most of the EW issues for the pilot and the offboard operators. Remember, the datalinks will not be transmitting waveforms, but mostly track & classification information.

Spud - While the L-8222 is apparently full-envelope-capable, ie supersonic friendly, it's the lighter self-protection jammer and hence not what was being referred to above re: escort EA jammers and their respective comparison as 'poor-mans' NGJ and potential for being supersonic capable. So in Elta's case, the all-in-one automatic pod being referred to above was the heavier 8251.

Arkady - one reason I was in fact conjecturing on a possible alternative 'poor-mans' NGJ for F-35 was that some designs are apparently all-in-one passive and transmit and have autonomous/automatic operational capability. So instead of 4 Growlers operating eg, as single point of failure platforms in a mission package, perhaps something like 6+ F-35 platforms (or 6+ F-18E/F-15E+/Rafale/Typhoon eg) could have centerline mounted, full-frequency and multi-directional Escort EA pods acting independently of Growlers? That was the basis for the conjecture.

neuro - in your scenario, are you referring to the current Elta EJ pod noted above? Or the also discussed Rafael/Elta (?) NG pod rumored to be under development, as a possible F-35 add-on system?

I figured since the L-8222 was in the same weight class as an AAM that it was a "light weight" when it came to capability.

geogen wrote:

neuro - in your scenario, are you referring to the current Elta EJ pod noted above? Or the also discussed Rafael/Elta (?) NG pod rumored to be under development, as a possible F-35 add-on system?

I'm talking about something beyond the EL/L-8222. The Israelis have made such a big deal about the F-35I, its likely they have some high-end systems to go into the jet.

neurotech wrote:

geogen wrote:

neuro - in your scenario, are you referring to the current Elta EJ pod noted above? Or the also discussed Rafael/Elta (?) NG pod rumored to be under development, as a possible F-35 add-on system?

I'm talking about something beyond the EL/L-8222. The Israelis have made such a big deal about the F-35I, its likely they have some high-end systems to go into the jet.

Yes, I realize we're not talking about the -8222 for such a role, that was Spud getting the topic off-track Wink

So I was referring to all-in-one, poor-man's escort jammer alternatives, eg the L-8251 class, or as discussed the similar type EJ offered by Thales or Elisra?

Is what you're referring to therefore, as a possible F-35 all-in-one alternative capability, the type 8251 by Elta? Or something different? For instance... is there any recent update with respect to the rumored NG pod (possible joint-venture) as I think was proposed by Elta and/or Rafael?

The EL/L-8251 class jammer matches what would be needed in a F-35 for a "poor mans" escort jammer. According to the datasheets, it has the directionality of a AESA EA system.

I hadn't heard any specific update on exactly which EA system would be fitted to the F-35I. Its likely that Elta and/or Rafael have something beyond what has been acknowledged so far. No news definite plans to buy the EA pod from Elta for US F-35s yet.

neurotech wrote:

The Thales AESA-based EA pod reflects the reality that having directional control of a EA jammer is significantly more effective than the undirected systems such as the ALQ-99.

What do you mean by directional control?

cola wrote:

neurotech wrote:

The Thales AESA-based EA pod reflects the reality that having directional control of a EA jammer is significantly more effective than the undirected systems such as the ALQ-99.

What do you mean by directional control?

I believe he means targeting radiation to specific enemy installations, aircraft, or areas, as opposed to a blind barrage of jamming radiated every which way, possibly with reduced power and effectiveness.

Forum: General F-35 Forum

Next Generation Jammer Deferred for F-35 Indefinitely