Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

India will soon be flying both of these aircraft so hopefully this question will be resolved soon. But just for the hell of it, which of these two aircraft is more capable in A2A combat?

The Rafale has a significantly smaller RCS, but the Flanker is a much larger aircraft so it can fit a much larger, more powerful radar. Both of the aircraft will be getting AESA upgrades. I'd have to imagine that ones you hang bombs, fuel tanks etc. neither of these aircraft can be considered "stealthy," despite Dassault's marketing.

Both aircraft are equipped with HMS and HOBS missiles. The Rafale is smaller and lighter but the Flanker series are well known for their impressive agility and the MKI has 3D thrust vectoring.

The Rafale is more than double the price so I hope it does bring something more to the table. Dassault does tout SPECTRA an awful lot, but a lot of it seems to marketing. That system doesn't seem to have anything that most 4++ gen aircraft don't.

Interestingly, both these aircraft participated in Red Flag back in '08. I'm sure many of us are familiar with that series of videos from a USAF pilot at Nellis. He basically said the MKIs got housed by F-15Cs in A2A engagements but he did say that the MKI would be a little better than the F-15 and -16 once the Indians start learning how to use it. He did say it was vastly inferior to the -22. According to him, the French didn't do much and seemed to be only be there to spy.

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I suspect that the Flanker-H would consistently kill the Rafale in WVR based on its 3D TVC and two-man crew, and the other way around in BVR. I always see Russian radars as somewhat suspect, while the Euros, for all their serious failings, tend to develop reasonably capable avionics.

However, this thread doesn't have much relevance to a real-world combat situation. Is this DCA? OCA? What kind of offboard sensor support is there? Whose Rafales are these?

The question is this: How much RCS does the Rafale have when trailing ext tanks and missiles.

Far from LO, so the MKI BARS should be able to pick it up in BVR. I don't know how you can claim the 1m2 BARS radar array are so under powered..
Sources pls?

haavarla wrote:

The question is this: How much RCS does the Rafale have when trailing ext tanks and missiles.

Far from LO, so the MKI BARS should be able to pick it up in BVR. I don't know how you can claim the 1m2 BARS radar array are so under powered..
Sources pls?

I believe you are correct on the Rafale's RCS. SPECTRA may be able to interfere with radar detection or cause broken locks, but the system's capabilities are really unknown, untested, and possibly incomplete.

After doing some research, I looked at the N011M and have revised my opinion. It actually appears to be a pretty decent radar, surprisingly comparable to what the Rafale carries. I'm used to the Slot Back and Spin Scan radars being representative of Russian/Soviet-built avionics, neither of which are very impressive.

southernphantom wrote:

However, this thread doesn't have much relevance to a real-world combat situation. Is this DCA? OCA? What kind of offboard sensor support is there? Whose Rafales are these?

Let's say for the purposes of this comparison, the Indians decide to do a fly off between their Rafales and MKIs.....the pilots' standard of training should be identical and they should both have access to AWACS and the respective aircraft can be data-linked to other aircraft of their type. In such a scenario there is no question about which air force was better trained, home-field advantage, superior tactics etc.

southernphantom wrote:

while the Euros, for all their serious failings, tend to develop reasonably capable avionics.

The MKI's radar is Russian built but a lot of the avionics are French, Israeli and British-made mixed in with some indigenous stuff.

haavarla wrote:

The question is this: How much RCS does the Rafale have when trailing ext tanks and missiles.

Far from LO, so the MKI BARS should be able to pick it up in BVR. I don't know how you can claim the 1m2 BARS radar array are so under powered..

I think the MKI is supposed to have a pretty good radar. All of India's 126 Rafales will have AESA radars built by Thales and I know there is a plan to upgrade at least some Sukhois with AESA (probably based on the Phazotron Zhuk-AE which is in the MiG-35 and other new Russian jets). I assume the MKI has a much larger radar than the Rafale simply because it's a very large aircraft so it should be more powerful.

Most sources I've read say the Rafale has a frontal RCS of 0.1-0.3m^2. It's tough to know what the MKI's RCS is. I know that new MiG-29s have been quoted at about 1m^2. Let's say it's between 1m^2 and 3m^2. I'm assuming those figures are for clean birds (no munitions, stores etc.)

I think both jets should have no problems picking each other up BVR, but the only question is the range at which they could be detected and engaged. The quality of the missiles matters a great deal here.

The Sukhoi will be using mostly Russian missiles. The Rafale will work with mostly French missiles and can also fire the ASRAAM and Meteor.

southernphantom wrote:

I believe you are correct on the Rafale's RCS. SPECTRA may be able to interfere with radar detection or cause broken locks, but the system's capabilities are really unknown, untested, and possibly incomplete.

It's tough to say how effective SPECTRA's jamming would work. I'm guessing it wouldn't be very effective against an AESA radar. I do know that the Su-30MKI can be fitted with the same jammer that is used on the MiG-21 bison. Apparently, that made the MiG-21 bison very difficult to detect using legacy F-15 and F-16 radars. I'm assuming that wouldn't be the case against AESA or even an advanced PESA though.

Some thoughts here.

1) An AESA radar for the Su-30MKI is not confirmed, there have been rumours yes, but the few official bits suggest an upgraded N-011M.

2) SPECTRA being "unproven and untested" is a stupid claim and not really reflecting the truth.

3) TVC may offer advantages if properbly applied in combat, but it has its limitations. That it's possible to counter TVC ac close in has well been demonstrated during Red Flag where Vipers and Eagles supposedly scored some kills against the Su-30MKI and the Rafale was able to hold its own against F-22s in Al dhafra and the F-22 might well be a more demanding opponent close in with alower wing load, less drag in combat configuration and super TWR and TDR.

Last edited by haavarla on May 07, 2012 - 03:42 PM; edited 1 time in total

The soon to be Su-30SM might get the same package as the Super MKI.
I believe there are two Su-30SM beeing completed right now, aimed for state trials.

AESA or not, there are good chances both Su-30SM and super MKI will have the same specs(bar a few subsystems).
From a production line logistic point of view anyway.. Same manufactors, same airframe, they both beeing order around the same time window..

Scorpion82 wrote:

2) SPECTRA being "unproven and untested" is a stupid claim and not really reflecting the truth.

That's not quite what I said. I said that SPECTRA's capabilities are unknown (there is still a large amount of speculation regarding its function), and that it is untested. By this last statement, I meant that it has yet to come up against a credible threat that would truly necessitate its use. 70s-era Libyan SAM systems and the odd SA-7 in Afghanistan are not exactly major threats to a Rafale. I should have made myself more clear.
I also said that SPECTRA may be incomplete. There is speculation in this area, unfounded or not.

By that measure almost all modern Western systems are untested... Spectra was at least regarded as good enough to reject support from dedicated jamming aircraft or SEAD escorts. It is a rather update and one of the most complete systems of its kind which has seen a couple of upgrades since it was first introduced and a robust development roadmap is being pursued. Some of its capabilities appear to be extremely rare at this point in time, including exact geo-location of ground based emitters to target them with GPS guided munitions or even to launch AAMs against airborne threat emitters.

Quote:

3) TVC may offer advantages if properbly applied in combat, but it has its limitations. That it's possible to counter TVC ac close in has well been demonstrated during Red Flag where Vipers and Eagles supposedly scored some kills against the Su-30MKI and the Rafale was able to hold its own against F-22s in Al dhafra and the F-22 might well be a more demanding opponent close in with alower wing load, less drag in combat configuration and super TWR and TDR.

What are you smoking man?

By all accounts, it seems to me to be a lightweight, smaller, less impressive version of an F-35 Lightning II without V/STOL capability and instead have dual engines, F-18 Hornet intakes and foreplanes.
Everybody is saying how the F-35 sucks, and would get destroyed by a Flanker; what chance does the Rafale have against the Raptor?

sorry, correction. Change last word "Raptor" to "Flanker", although "Raptor" is appropriate there as well. Very Happy

I agree with Scorpian82. Keep upgrading the Rafale's Spectra management suite, as well as increasing capabilities of other systems and system integrations... and then that platform will be a very cost-effective modern platform from which to effectively upgrade for the next 15-20 yrs as a legitimate front-line asset. Salute~

flighthawk128 wrote:

What are you smoking man?

By all accounts, it seems to me to be a lightweight, smaller, less impressive version of an F-35 Lightning II without V/STOL capability and instead have dual engines, F-18 Hornet intakes and foreplanes.
Everybody is saying how the F-35 sucks, and would get destroyed by a Flanker; what chance does the Rafale have against the Raptor?

Maybe you reread my post and view it in the appropriate context. At Al Dhafra the F-22s won just one of six 1 vs 1 WVR DACTs (guns only) with the rest ending up in a draw. Considering the claimed superiority of the F-22 with stories like "3 JHMCS equiped F-16s with simulated AIM-9X being smashed by a single F-22" this is indeed an achievement, but it must be seen in the context of this narrowly defined scenario. In real combat engagements are dynamic and not scripted, so the outcome would be different as both sides would fight in a different way. WRT the F-35 this isn't subject of thread anyway and whoever is everybody, I'm not going to deal with generalised claims made by other people.

A&C Magazine said the F-22 at least 2 kills on the Rafale. And a "draw" was defined by neither aircraft scoring a kill after a certain amount of time. Besides, guns only is highly unrepresentative of what real combat would be like. According to that same article, Raptors were easily able to put AMRAAMs on the Rafales without even turning on their radars, while remaining completely invisible to the Rafales' SPECTRA.

Reports differ, some suggest one kills others two. Whatever the overwhelming victory as reported against the three F-16s for example was not achieved. Of course these DACTs aren't representative for real combat as I pointed out already.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Su-30MKI vs Rafale