Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

A new AFA article that shines some light on some details for increment 3.3.

What’s most interesting is this:

Quote:

The content of future "3.3" Raptor upgrades is still being hashed out. Among the leading candidates are side-mounted active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and helmet-mounted cueing systems. Much will depend on out-years funding and the results of the should-cost review, which is ongoing.

Very interesting in that they are actually wanting to bring back in the side looking AESAs into the program. A HMCS is also a good choice but as it’s described in an article I read recently it only gave the Raptor access to the 9X’s “outer fringe of the envelope” which is why the HMCS hasn’t been high on the JROC’s list for Raptor upgrades. It also looks like they’re going back to the drawing board as far as data links but it’s still viewed as a pretty pressing requirement. There’s no mention of the addition of inclusion of an open architecture or an OA overlay as has been reported recently by Flight Global’s Majumbar so hopefully that’s still being explored. What isn’t very clear if increment 3.2 and latter are available for all Blk 30/35 jets, as it is alluded to in this article, or just the Blk 35 jets.

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Trouble is that if they can't sort out the inabilty to communicate with other aircraft the Raptor becomes a useless asset in any coalition air campaing and a marginally effective asset in any USAF only air campaign. The risk of fratricide is just to large using the current methods, or so i've heard anyway, hence no show in Libya*.

*(Yes I know Libya had a p**s poor airforce but the F-22 would have been a superb ELINT collection tool in that campaign but the risks of fratricide were too great thanks to its inabilty to communicate with coalition forces)

The USAF needs to get its priorities sorted out, and quickly. So far its made a real botch up of the F-22 program. Which is a real shame.

fat_cat wrote:

Trouble is that if they can't sort out the inabilty to communicate with other aircraft the Raptor becomes a useless asset in any coalition air campaing and a marginally effective asset in any USAF only air campaign. The risk of fratricide is just to large using the current methods, or so i've heard anyway, hence no show in Libya*.

*(Yes I know Libya had a p**s poor airforce but the F-22 would have been a superb ELINT collection tool in that campaign but the risks of fratricide were too great thanks to its inabilty to communicate with coalition forces)

The USAF needs to get its priorities sorted out, and quickly. So far its made a real botch up of the F-22 program. Which is a real shame.

It is possible to identify other aircraft through voice comms, you know. This method does have a greater EM signature than a secure datalink, but is tried-and-true. Raptors in Libya wouldn't have been a fratricide risk as you claim. The actual numbers of friendly aircraft alone make this extremely clear. I doubt there were more than a few NATO fighters over the country at most times, and those that were could be easily avoided through proper coordination with AWACS and other platforms.

Oh I don't know, I bet the skies over Libya had a fair few coalition jets over them at any one time as some countries managed some really high sortie rates, the F-16 operators that flew in the coalition spring to mind as do the French with their jets.
And yes you are right when you mention voice comms to identify friendly's, though that could have proved awkward had comms been jammed (either by mistake or by foreign countries helping Libya). Tired pilots could also screw up on that too where as proper datalinks make that less likely.
(I won't say anymore on this Libya thing though as I don't want to drag it off topic.)

fat_cat wrote:

Oh I don't know, I bet the skies over Libya had a fair few coalition jets over them at any one time as some countries managed some really high sortie rates, the F-16 operators that flew in the coalition spring to mind as do the French with their jets.
And yes you are right when you mention voice comms to identify friendly's, though that could have proved awkward had comms been jammed (either by mistake or by foreign countries helping Libya). Tired pilots could also screw up on that too where as proper datalinks make that less likely.
(I won't say anymore on this Libya thing though as I don't want to drag it off topic.)

The Raptor would've had no trouble discerning friend from foe, over Libya. The ALR-94 could easily determine identities, from emissions. The APG-77 also has very good NCTR capabilities. This is all without including IFF, and AWACS.

Then why is it a problem the USAF acknowledge?

fat_cat wrote:

Then why is it a problem the USAF acknowledge?

The issues the F-22 would have, would be sharing data link information, to other aircraft, not in determining whether or not they were threats.

wrightwing wrote:

The issues the F-22 would have, would be sharing data link information, to other aircraft, not in determining whether or not they were threats.

The two things in question, IFF and the sharing of information are so closely linked they are effectively the same problem.

Um, no.

IIF is deciding whether or not to shoot the guy in your sights and data links are about sharing the info that you can see.

When you've got an F-22 moving at Mach 1 plus toward an unknown who could be under a hundred miles away to go through the ropes of deconfliction using AWACS and voice comms is a disaster waiting to happen. One has to remember that controlled exercises in sterile environments don't take annoying little details like that into account. The USAF is fully aware of this hence the no show in Libya.

The F-22 can ALWAYS receive Link16 data without any problems. The issue was sharing what the F-22 knew with other non-F-22 assets.

Thats right, and therefore the other fighter could fire upon the F-22 because he can't tell if the raptor is a hostile or a friendly. And then we get a blue on blue disaster.

A couple of things to consider:
Blue force will know that F-22s are in the area.
F-22s will still respond to IFF requests.
How is the other fighter going to see the F-22?
When the other fighter starts to light up the F-22 with a radar, the F-22 can go on the radio and tell him to "knock it off".

SpudmanWP wrote:

A couple of things to consider:
Blue force will know that F-22s are in the area.

How will they know if the F-22's original CAP orbit was 250 - 300 miles off? The F-22 is not invisable either. You're assuming the very best situation too much here.

That's what IIF is for (did you miss that part)?

There is also this thing called a radio, heard of it? Wink

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Some increment 3.3 news