Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

In the latest issue of Combat Aircraft magazine (November 2011) there is an article on the Greek Air Force Phantoms which have been armed with AMRAAMs and the APG-65 radar combination for the last 10 years. It talks about how they fly CAP at 45000 ft at 1.5 mach and how happy they are with the results. Question: if they survive being hit with a BVR missile and get into a dogfight situation how would they fare against more modern aircraft. I realize they can't turn with most of the newer aircraft but do they have any chance of survival with the more modern AIM 9 sidewinders along with the AMRAAM and radar ????????????

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Dunno about the Greek F-4s, but German F-4F have been upgraded with the AN/APG-65 radar and AMRAAMs. In BVR they gave USAF F-15s and F-16s some naety surprises. WVR they have little chance however.

BVR they are nearly the equal of an F-15, hence the nasty surprise, but WVR you are still looking at a plane that is heavier, has inferior lift generation, and inferior excess thrust to retain/regain speed. Those are the reasons the F-15 was built in the first place, and the F-16 is even more advanced then that. Fighter design in the 70s was about Ps and maximum G.

edpop,

You're assuming the F-4 also would have HOBS AIM-9X, in case the opponent survived a M1.5 45k' launched AMRAAM salvo? Speed and altitude would likely still be the superior advantage in a HOBS employed WVR contest.

edpop wrote:

In the latest issue of Combat Aircraft magazine (November 2011) there is an article on the Greek Air Force Phantoms which have been armed with AMRAAMs and the APG-65 radar combination for the last 10 years. It talks about how they fly CAP at 45000 ft at 1.5 mach and how happy they are with the results. Question: if they survive being hit with a BVR missile and get into a dogfight situation how would they fare against more modern aircraft. I realize they can't turn with most of the newer aircraft but do they have any chance of survival with the more modern AIM 9 sidewinders along with the AMRAAM and radar ????????????

If the F-4 survives being hit by a BVR missile at mach 4 relative to earth/inertial reference frame then I'd be more worried about potential damage from the blast frag warhead. By "hit" I'm assuming you mean a direct or near miss hit which may cause quite a bit of damage to the F-4 airframe. In that case I doubt you'd want to be performing high G maneuvers regardless of the plane you're flying in order to not stress the airframe anymore than it already has been.

In the case the F-4 survives with minimal damage then once it gets into the WVR engagement envelope then the F-4 would be slaughtered by a Viper or Eagle. The F-4 was good in the vertical climbing portion of ACM but couldn't turn worth a damn like you said. The F-4 has an inferior thrust to weight ratio and inferior lift generation properties compared to the F-15 and F-16 which both have a wonderful wing-loading and a thrust to weight ratio higher than 1. Hence, the 4th gen fighters would be bound to have superior energy maintenance and superior energy regaining capabilities in a dogfight.

I conclude that a pre-damaged F-4 wouldn't last long against an F-16 or F-15. Add in a high off boresight missile like Python 5 or AIM-9X to the 4th gen fighters and this becomes an even bigger slaughter in the modern fighters' favor.

tacf-x ...

Interesting views ^^^ given the fact you just finished saying on another thread a 9G pulling Su would be no match for a 50-60G pulling AIM-9X. (As if the 'opponent' would not have it's own next-gen HOBS systems).

But now in this case, it's all of a sudden an easy WVR slaughter, as the 9G pulling Viper and Eagle would have no problem dealing with AIM-9x launched by the F-4? Needs a bit more objective thinking and critical analysis, imho.

After just looking up that Greece has the Iris-T, I stand corrected.

My previous assessment was made assuming Greece was still using the AIM-9L or M variants on their phantoms without any sort of helmet mounted display.

Apparently the F-4s of the HAF have been rated to use IRIS-T so I guess the WVR engagement won't go so smoothly after all with both sides having comparable short range weapons and other tech. I guess this engagement would realistically go to who gets the other guy into their WEZ first. I've read that modern missiles like IRIS-T and AIM-9X have engagement envelopes that extend past the visual range so this will definitely be interesting. It could be a war of attrition given the capabilities of these upgraded Phantoms and their APG-65s being cued by their helmets.

Still, I remember the OP implying that the F-4's had "survived being hit with a BVR missile." I would imagine getting hit by an AMRAAM head-on would do quite a bit of damage to the airframe structure and I doubt anyone would want to try and fight with pieces of the airframe potentially popping off at any given moment. In that case I say the Greeks bug out after assessing the damages.

or pull the yellow handle and ride a rocket

Frankly, the Phantom shouldn't be anywhere near a WVR knife fight. However, what I would see as potentially useful is an LAU-115/LAU-127 combo on each inboard hardpoint and potentially others as well. This doubles the AIM-120 capacity of the aircraft and makes it into something truly comparable to an Eagle in BVR. One should always strive to minimize the weaknesses of one's aircraft, and keeping your Phantom as far away as possible is a great way to do this.

I don't think that they meant that the F-4 literally survived being hit by a missile. I believe the meaning was that the F-4 survived being engaged(i.e. missile not hitting).

I didnt know any Phantoms had been upgraded with advanced short ranged missiles. I wonder if Greek pilots have helmet mounted sights to take full advantage of the missiles capability. Imagine if they were to upgrade to PW engines to compliment the weapons upgrades!

Spooky wrote:

I didnt know any Phantoms had been upgraded with advanced short ranged missiles. I wonder if Greek pilots have helmet mounted sights to take full advantage of the missiles capability. Imagine if they were to upgrade to PW engines to compliment the weapons upgrades!

I'd love to see that...remind me to do the T/W calculations later.

The most fun engine that fits in the bay would be the F414 EPE. Smaller in every dimention, 40% more thrust, and a ton lighter per engine.

Hmm Super cruising F-4, Fire and forget medium range missiles, off bore-sight 'winders with a helmet mounted sight and display.
Just for fun hang an ALQ-99 on the center pylon.

grinner68 wrote:

Hmm Super cruising F-4, Fire and forget medium range missiles, off bore-sight 'winders with a helmet mounted sight and display.
Just for fun hang an ALQ-99 on the center pylon.

So, basically a Super Eagle/Ultra Phantom?? I like that idea...remind me to use in my next novel Wink

(the first involves F-4Es of the Georgia Air National Guard fighting a mad President's regime. Explosions and Vietnam allusions abound)

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Phantoms armed with AMRAAM