Forum: Program and politics

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE

Quote:

Canada’s associate defense minister said on March 13 that one of the most ardent supporters of the F-35 program could back out of a multi-billion purchase of the fighter jets.

Here's hoping... so we don't have to listen to their griping anymore.

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Just to be clear,

The media will never stop griping about any acquisition.

I really wish you'd choose your words a little more carefully, as it would appear you are more than happy to muddy the many waters that are at play here.

HMS happens in Canada

Hyperventilating Media Syndrome

Interesting full quote here (I'm glad that the Canadian Press are so good) Smile

F-35 purchase undecided, Fantino says By Laura Payton, CBC News Posted: Mar 13, 2012
Backing out of purchase 'not as yet discounted,' says procurement minister

http://www.cbc.ca/m/rich/politics/story ... -f35s.html

"Canada could reconsider an agreement to buy new F-35 joint strike fighter jets, Julian Fantino suggested Tuesday, as partner countries re-evaluate their own commitments.

"We have not as yet discounted, the possibility, of course, of backing out of any of the program," Fantino, associate minister of national defence, told the House defence committee Tuesday.

"None of the partners have. We are not [backing out of the program?]. And we’ll just have to think it through further as time goes on, but we are confident that we will not leave Canada or our men and women in uniform in a lurch, but it’s hypothetical to go any further right now."

Fantino also said the government won't decide on the purchase until it knows how much it will cost.

"We will be expending the allotted amount, $9 billion, for the acquisition if we are going to go there," he said...."

Canadian Press [style/culture of reporting] seems to be influenced by UK Press which also influences Oz Press - anything for a laugh (to sell newspapers). Serious problems today with 'phone hacking scandal in UK' shows the deplorable lack of ethics in some newspaper reporting over there "We don't just report news - We make news!" Twisted Evil

At last a NON-Canadian reporter gives some perspective...

Canadian fixation on the F-35 March 14, 2012 Bob Cox

http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk ... -f-35.html

"...From a practical point of view this reporter didn't see all that much in the remarks of Associate Defense Minister Julian Fantino to get very excited about. Not exactly a tectonic shift in policy. A shift in words, a little back tracking of the kind political figures do all the time, but that's about it...."

More always at the jump so go there.

As well as in other countries, Australia, Norway, the Netherlands or other countries, the F35 is mainly a political fight being elected.
A quite easy item as a political party in the opposition.
Either they don’t mention, nor explain what an alternative, all included, “really” will cost.

In fact most politicians don’t care that much what’s the best for the military, the country or what jet is important for a pilot to survive.
They only care for what’s the best for their party (voters) or what’s best for themselves.

The media often are not that much different, it’s an easy item to write about (selling a newspaper). Especially about the price of a jet, during a financial crisis and less defense budgets.

Mainly the public is not much interested in a jet, they only will read what ordering a specific jet will cost. When the media does not also publish in their articles the real costs of other jets, public in general hardly will have any idea the price of such a jet (F35), when compared, is not that extremely high as is seems.

One will not read in such media articles, for example the offer to the Swiss by Dassault, almost $200 million per Rafale. Even a Gripen is not that cheap, as well as leasing is quite expensive.
Don’t hear politicians, nay sayers, in Canada or somewhere else, about an alternative as for example a Rafale ($196.8 million) or a Typhoon (most expensive, Swiss offer).

A Blogger has at it:

Oh Canada! Minister Fantino’s F-35 Statement Thursday, March 15, 2012

"What was said vs. what the jungle drums ‘report’..."

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com.au/ ... -f-35.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ncZ0VOa46Sc/T ... F-Flag.jpg

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... elays.html

Canada is not alone, others will follow soon .. The F-35 is doomed !!! its time for all partners to abandon this ill-fated project and find an alternative.

Lockheed should heed the 14 rules from their famous designer Dutch Kelly.

Kelly Johnson's 14 Rules of Management

1.The Skunk Works manager must be delegated practically complete control of his program in all aspects. He should report to a division president or higher.

2.Strong but small project offices must be provided both by the military and industry.

3.The number of people having any connection with the project must be restricted in an almost vicious manner. Use a small number of good people (10% to 25% compared to the so-called normal systems).

4.A very simple drawing and drawing release system with great flexibility for making changes must be provided.

5.There must be a minimum number of reports required, but important work must be recorded thoroughly.

6.There must be a monthly cost review covering not only what has been spent and committed but also projected costs to the conclusion of the program. Don't have the books ninety days late and don't surprise the customer with sudden overruns.

7.The contractor must be delegated and must assume more than normal responsibility to get good vendor bids for subcontract on the project. Commercial bid procedures are very often better than military ones.

8.The inspection system as currently used by the Skunk Works, which has been approved by both the Air Force and Navy, meets the intent of existing military requirements and should be used on new projects. Push more basic inspection responsibility back to subcontractors and vendors. Don't duplicate so much inspection.

9.The contractor must be delegated the authority to test his final product in flight. He can and must test it in the initial stages. If he doesn't, he rapidly loses his competency to design other vehicles.

10. The specifications applying to the hardware must be agreed to well in advance of contracting. The Skunk Works practice of having a specification section stating clearly which important military specification items will not knowingly be complied with and reasons therefore is highly recommended.

11. Funding a program must be timely so that the contractor doesn't have to keep running to the bank to support government projects.

12. There must be mutual trust between the military project organization and the contractor with very close cooperation and liaison on a day-to-day basis. This cuts down misunderstanding and correspondence to an absolute minimum.

13. Access by outsiders to the project and its personnel must be strictly controlled by appropriate security measures.

14. Because only a few people will be used in engineering and most other areas, ways must be provided to reward good performance by pay not based on the number of personnel supervised.

[quote="cynical175"]Lockheed should heed the 14 rules from their famous designer Dutch Kelly.

Kelly Johnson's 14 Rules of Management

Is this the man who created the U2 and SR-71??

duplex wrote:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/133610/f_35-performance-may-be-cut-to-avoid-further-delays.html

Canada is not alone, others will follow soon .. The F-35 is doomed !!! its time for all partners to abandon this ill-fated project and find an alternative.

The F35 doomed? Every year some fanatic predicts this about earth as well Rolling Eyes

What alternative? A Rafale? Offer to the Swiss almost $200 million per Rafale

Typhoon, this jet dit cost the UK some $199 million per Typhoon.
The project started in 80th and still the jet is not a multirole. Till so far, a UK Typhoon can drop only one bomb type, 1000 lbs, with help of a Tornado. Expected being a full multirole in 2018.

(In 2030 all the UK Typhoons will have been phased out).

A F18 E/F or a Growler? Till so far only 24 have been exported. Ask the Aussies what these 24 F18's did cost them.

duplex wrote:

Is this the man who created the U2 and SR-71??

No such individual exists. But Kelley was the boss of the teams that created both of those places. His rules for how to manage the place are quoted in the book "Skunk Works", written by his successor in that role, Ben Rich, who was a lower-ranking member of the U-2 and Blackbird teams.

Rich took over after Kelley retired. Rich's first project as the boss was F-117, which Kelley was furious about at first, thinking it would be a huge mistake. He died before F-22 came along, but Rich was still in charge for that and still trying to work by his old rules. The problem, which Rich goes into in the book, is that a place like Skunk Works only works well if it's allowed freedom to let the engineers tinker in peace, and the government (along with the main Lock-Mart office) has spent decades eroding that independence by sending in always-growing hordes of vultures to hang over them, nitpick and second-guess every move they make, impose piles of pointless bureaucratic rules, and demand that everything that's been done be undone and then redone... which reduces doing things Kelley's old way to pretty much just a dream and is the cause of the now-familiar delays and cost increases.

duplex wrote:

.. others will follow soon .. The F-35 is doomed ...find an alternative.

They may consider the CGS Hawk Arrow and the second seater can even carry 10 lbs. of rocks. So much for tactical aircraft, Chicken Little! Smile

m wrote:

duplex wrote:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/133610/f_35-performance-may-be-cut-to-avoid-further-delays.html

Canada is not alone, others will follow soon .. The F-35 is doomed !!! its time for all partners to abandon this ill-fated project and find an alternative.

The F35 doomed? Every year some fanatic predicts this about earth as well Rolling Eyes

What alternative? A Rafale? Offer to the Swiss almost $200 million per Rafale

Typhoon, this jet dit cost the UK some $199 million per Typhoon.
The project started in 80th and still the jet is not a multirole. Till so far, a UK Typhoon can drop only one bomb type, 1000 lbs, with help of a Tornado. Expected being a full multirole in 2018.

(In 2030 all the UK Typhoons will have been phased out).

A F18 E/F or a Growler? Till so far only 24 have been exported. Ask the Aussies what these 24 F18's did cost them.

Dare I even ASK what the Brits are going to use for TACAIR after 2030?? The Euros lack the foresight to schedule programs that will produce an aircraft approximately when needed (and the ability to make the one they have work...), so is the RAF going to be stuck with a few squadrons of F-35s as its only survivable TACAIR?? Sigh... Rolling Eyes

As for the RCAF, the lack of Super Hornet exports IMO doesn't mean all that much, but the aircraft would be somewhat suited to their requirements. However, I personally believe that an F-15E derivative would be better-suited to Canada's huge area. The drawback to this is that IIRC the Boeing line is tied up for quite a while thanks to our Saudi buddies. Make of that delay what you will.

southernphantom wrote:

Dare I even ASK what the Brits are going to use for TACAIR after 2030?? The Euros lack the foresight to schedule programs that will produce an aircraft approximately when needed (and the ability to make the one they have work...), so is the RAF going to be stuck with a few squadrons of F-35s as its only survivable TACAIR?? Sigh... Rolling Eyes

Not only the UK, but Germany as well when their Tornado’s and Phantoms have been phased out. What will the Germans do as replacement?

An enormous lack of A2G capability in Europe will exist, when these major European countries will not replace with enough A2G number capable jets
Especially when the UK probably will order less F35’s.

107 UK Typhoons and an x number F35’s (50, who knows?) will be left in the UK.

As you wrote, what are they going to after 2030? Another number F35’s?
Or may be ordering the new to develop jet by the US? If … this jet will be exported by the US?

Forum: Program and politics

Canada May Back Out of F-35 Purchase: Minister