Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Anyone interested in the claims of the French with regard to this should read this thread
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/vie ... amp;t=1836

Basically as you read through it you discover that pretty much everything the French have said has been exposed as a pack of lies by everyone involved.

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SpudmanWP wrote:

The radar had to be on, in some mode, at some point.. otherwise the F-22 would not get a proper gun lead solution.

You're quite right. However, turning on your radar (LPI or not) in WVR is a helluva lot different than radiating at long range, and has no real negative consequences.

I have not heard anything about the ROEs! I think I read some place about the F-22s did not use their APG-77 in an active mode and the Rafales were not to use their EOS. In the clear air of the Middle East is an environment where the EOS operates at its best. Not spoken of is, how well does it work in cloud filled / rain filled environment of let's say the UK?
As for the Mirage getting a gun kill on the F-22A well... there was a picture on this forum (a while back) posted which showed an F-5 getting a gun kill on a F-22A! When one reads the HUD, it displays the F-5 was pulling 5½ Gs and was at 15,000ft. The first thing I would to find out is, what were the the ROEs??
That exercise in the UAE, had so many rumors it isn't funny. The rumors that the Rafale defeated the Typhoon on many exercises yet the Typhoon never defeated the Rafale?

Beazz wrote:

daniel78 wrote:

Hello,

If you want the point of view of a french pilot, read this blog .... Smile

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... Ftag%2Ff22

Daniel From France

Pure hogwash. As usual, the French try and put the Rafael in the same category as the F22, which it is NOT. The one video from the American pilot clearly said the F22 was undefeated. That clearly conflicts with our French pals. The French have been leaking clip after clip about how great the Rafael did against the F22 which it is equal to Rolling Eyes

The Rafail falls into the category of F15.18,16 etc. Its is NOT a 5th gen plane no matter how the French try and spin it and in a real life fight would not last 10 seconds against an F22 or F35. End of story and every nations defense dept out there knows it which is why they are all lining up to buy the F35, NOT the mighty Rafael!! geeeeeeeeeez

It boils down to who you believe. The French who are non stop tooting their horn about the Rafael or the F22 pilot who made one 30 second comment and not another word from any other nation on the subject? The best thing the Rafael has going for it is the F22 happens to he owned and operated by the one nation that can at will, make hamburger meat out of the Rafael and is a friend of the French. The Rafael is a dead end 4th gen a/c that in 10 years will be but a dot in aviation history, period.

Beazzzzzzz

Now how exactly would the French pilot know what the F-22 was even doing? (furthering this comment)
Cmon seriously, where did common sense go these days. The only point of view the french should have is the F-22 had its cannon pointing at its rear.

(Off Topic) "An old WWII vet was on vacation with his family a few years ago... and during their European tour, the Vet and his family eventually get to France. As he gets up to the passport official he is asked if he has ever been to France before. "yes I have" "well sir I do not see a stamp on your passport anywhere" "it was a long time ago" "I see no record in the system of you ever visiting MY country" "well as I recall, the last time I came here, I was storming the beach at Normandy, and there sure wasn't a damn Frenchman anywhere to stamp my passport! Seeing as how I bled for this country, its more mine than it is yours. So stamp my passport and enjoy your freedom son" (This is just a joke)

At one time this deal seemed to be locked up and destined to be the Rafale's first international sale.. such is life.

UAE Says France's Rafale Deal 'Unworkable'
By PIERRE TRAN
Published: 16 Nov 2011 09:00

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - The industrial terms in the French effort to sell the Dassault Rafale fighter to the United Arab Emirates were "unworkable," Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed, deputy supreme commander of the armed forces, said Nov. 16.

Emirati officials cited the terms, specifications and price among the reasons for declaring France's Rafale package "unworkable." (Dassault Aviation)

Emirati officials cited the terms, specifications and price among the reasons for declaring France's Rafale package "unworkable." (Dassault Aviation)

"Thanks to President Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," bin Zayed said, according to WAM, the Emirati official news agency.
Related Topics
Europe
Asia & Pacific Rim
Air Warfare

"Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable

HaveVoid wrote:

I would assume so. Anyhow, I had never heard about the whole Rafale beating up on the EF-2000. Did that really happen?

Yeah, I've seen some results of the Rafale in action against the EF-2000, and from what I remember it kicked its a$$.

pbever wrote:

HaveVoid wrote:

I would assume so. Anyhow, I had never heard about the whole Rafale beating up on the EF-2000. Did that really happen?

Yeah, I've seen some results of the Rafale in action against the EF-2000, and from what I remember it kicked its a$$.

The Rafale dominated the Eurofailure? Interesting.

pbever wrote:

Yeah, I've seen some results of the Rafale in action against the EF-2000, and from what I remember it kicked its a$$.

I know I’m going against my own stringently enforced “stay on topic” rule here but since you mentioned it, I’m curious to know where you heard that the Rafale kicked the Typhoon’s a$$? Are you referring to Iron Falcon 2009? If not, which exercise and what year? DLO(s)? ROE? Handicap(s)?

It would seem to me if the results that whoever / whatever your source is saying is accurate, it would fly in the face to those that claim the Rafale is a sluggish performer (and you know who they are). OR, it could also mean Dassault or the French AF is / was once again pumping up the Rafale (for sales).

@scorpionalpha
The first event was a WVR DACT at Solenzara in 2009 (8 or 9:1 for Rafale) and the second one were the two DACTs during the CT phase at Al Dhafra UAE in November 2009 (BVR 7:1 for Rafale). If there is some interest I can go into further details about both tomorrow.

Scorpion82, consider this interest in details.

Scorpion82 wrote:

@scorpionalpha
The first event was a WVR DACT at Solenzara in 2009 (8 or 9:1 for Rafale) and the second one were the two DACTs during the CT phase at Al Dhafra UAE in November 2009 (BVR 7:1 for Rafale). If there is some interest I can go into further details about both tomorrow.

What were the ROEs?

I thought this was the Raptor vs Rafale thread?!? And if so...how did it ever get this long? Shocked

southernphantom wrote:

pbever wrote:

HaveVoid wrote:

I would assume so. Anyhow, I had never heard about the whole Rafale beating up on the EF-2000. Did that really happen?

Yeah, I've seen some results of the Rafale in action against the EF-2000, and from what I remember it kicked its a$$.

The Rafale dominated the Eurofailure? Interesting.

Not always ,get this from a German Luftwaffe Typhoon pilot ;

Speaking of the Eurofighters close-in
combat prowess, Major Marc Grüne, CO of 742
(Zapata),
the second squadron of the wing, described
to assembled aviation journalists how, on a
recent visit to France to demo the aircraft,
he had won two out of two battles against
the Dassault Rafale in mock within visual
range dogfights. Both fights were a
standard set-up and merge at 21,000ft and
30,000ft he recounted, adding that the
higher the fight the better the Eurofighter
liked it. He singled out the
Eurofighters excess power as its trump
card over the Rafale

I learned a long time ago to stop paying attention to people's words and to pay more attention to their actions.

-Countries are lining up to buy the F-35 even though it's not officially on the market yet. On the other hand, the Rafale has been on the market for over a decade and only now could the French pick up an export customer. And make no mistake about it, a big part of why the Indians chose the Rafale is because they were able to get a good price and a good ToT deal on it. They knew how desperate the French were.

-Even though the Indians chose to buy the Rafale, look at their next generation air superiority fighter. It's going to be the PAK-FA/FGFA. Does this aircraft more closely resemble the F-22 or the Rafale? India does not consider the Rafale to be a 5th gen aircraft and that's why they are developing one with the help of the Russians.

-The Chinese are also developing a next generation fighter aircraft. To me, it looks more like a Raptor than it does a Rafale. The Chinese are obviously more impressed by the Raptor than the Rafale.

-The United States developed the Raptor at very considerable expense. They could easily offset a lot of the costs by exporting it to a few friendly nations (Israel, Japan, Australia, South Korea etc.) But instead, they chose to keep it to themselves. That tells me that they really do have a pretty impressive fighter on their hands and it is worth the massive expense. Compare that to the French, who desperately tried to sell the Rafale to anyone who was trying to buy.

The Rafale is a good 4++ gen multirole aircraft. I think it's basically a highly modernized F-16. It can do a lot of things better than the F-16, but there's nothing it can do that the F-16 can't. It will serve France and its exports well. But it's not going to be a world beating air superiority aircraft. Rafale fan boys can boast all they want, but at the end of the day, the actions of the world's leading air forces tell you what they think about the Rafale. They have access to more information than anyone on these forums. If the Rafale were really as good as the F-22, then everyone and their mother would be trying to buy it.

icemaverick wrote:

I learned a long time ago to stop paying attention to people's words and to pay more attention to their actions.

-Countries are lining up to buy the F-35 even though it's not officially on the market yet. On the other hand, the Rafale has been on the market for over a decade and only now could the French pick up an export customer. And make no mistake about it, a big part of why the Indians chose the Rafale is because they were able to get a good price and a good ToT deal on it. They knew how desperate the French were.

-Even though the Indians chose to buy the Rafale, look at their next generation air superiority fighter. It's going to be the PAK-FA/FGFA. Does this aircraft more closely resemble the F-22 or the Rafale? India does not consider the Rafale to be a 5th gen aircraft and that's why they are developing one with the help of the Russians.

-The Chinese are also developing a next generation fighter aircraft. To me, it looks more like a Raptor than it does a Rafale. The Chinese are obviously more impressed by the Raptor than the Rafale.

-The United States developed the Raptor at very considerable expense. They could easily offset a lot of the costs by exporting it to a few friendly nations (Israel, Japan, Australia, South Korea etc.) But instead, they chose to keep it to themselves. That tells me that they really do have a pretty impressive fighter on their hands and it is worth the massive expense. Compare that to the French, who desperately tried to sell the Rafale to anyone who was trying to buy.

The Rafale is a good 4++ gen multirole aircraft. I think it's basically a highly modernized F-16. It can do a lot of things better than the F-16, but there's nothing it can do that the F-16 can't. It will serve France and its exports well. But it's not going to be a world beating air superiority aircraft. Rafale fan boys can boast all they want, but at the end of the day, the actions of the world's leading air forces tell you what they think about the Rafale. They have access to more information than anyone on these forums. If the Rafale were really as good as the F-22, then everyone and their mother would be trying to buy it.

One quick note. It's not so much we chose to keep it to ourselves, it's that some Congressmen got an actual law passed making it illegal to sell the F-22 to anyone. Australia wanted it , Israel wanted it and Japan wanted it to the extent they claimed they were willing to cover any costs caused by a break in production. However, since it's against the law for the US to sell the Raptor abroad, all that came to naught.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 vs rafale