Forum: General F-35 Forum

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RDT&E: $2.7B
Procurement (29 units): $6.1B
Spares: $322M

Program Total: $9.2B

http://comptroller.defense.gov/defbudge ... eapons.pdf

Further breakdown from the P-1 budget:

F-35A: $176,488,368 each (3,353,279,000/19)
F-35B: $253,661,000 each (1,521,966,000/6)
F-35C: $279,174,500 each (1,116,698,000/4)

http://comptroller.defense.gov/defbudge ... 013_p1.pdf

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Well, its good to see the A, even in LRIP is around half the price of the UK Typhoons.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03 ... _analysis/

Cost details from the Navy's FY2013 President's Budget request:

F-35B (FY2013)

Unit Recurring Flyaway: $156,799,000
Flyaway Unit Cost: $196,509,834
Gross Weapons Systems Cost: $253,661,000

F135/Liftfan: $36,442,833 (included in above costs)

Production numbers FY2013-2017:

FY13: 6
FY14: 6
FY15: 6
FY16: 9
FY17: 14

Program is now projected to produce 290 units.
Flyaway unit cost average for the program: $143,763,666

F-35C (FY2013)

Unit Recurring Flyaway: $142,637,250
Flyaway Unit Cost: $199,408,000
Gross Weapons Systems Cost: $279,174,500

F135: $14,462,000 (included in above costs)

Production numbers FY2013-2017:

FY13: 4
FY14: 4
FY15: 6
FY16: 9
FY17: 14

Program is now projected to produce 321 units.
Flyaway unit cost average for the program: $139,230,218

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It appears that F-35B production will be 290 units, lower than 340 units envisioned earlier.
It appears that F-35C production will be 321 units, lower than 340 units envisioned earlier.
Program starts to ramp up production in the FY15-16 timeframe.
F-35B URF is higher than F-35C
Flyaway unit cost average for the program is higher for F-35B than F-35C.

Is there any corresponding data for the F-35A?

F-35A (FY2013)

Unit Recurring Flyaway: $118,143,842
Flyaway Unit Cost: $159,891,789
Gross Weapons Systems Cost: $181,462,052

F135: $14,462,000 (included in above costs)

Production numbers FY2013-2017:

FY13: 19
FY14: 19
FY15: 32
FY16: 48
FY17: 48

maus92 wrote:

Cost details from the Navy's FY2013 President's Budget request:

F-35B (FY2013)

Unit Recurring Flyaway: $156,799,000
Flyaway Unit Cost: $196,509,834
Gross Weapons Systems Cost: $253,661,000

F135/Liftfan: $36,442,833 (included in above costs)

Production numbers FY2013-2017:

FY13: 6
FY14: 6
FY15: 6
FY16: 9
FY17: 14

Program is now projected to produce 290 units.
Flyaway unit cost average for the program: $143,763,666

F-35C (FY2013)

Unit Recurring Flyaway: $142,637,250
Flyaway Unit Cost: $199,408,000
Gross Weapons Systems Cost: $279,174,500

F135: $14,462,000 (included in above costs)

Production numbers FY2013-2017:

FY13: 4
FY14: 4
FY15: 6
FY16: 9
FY17: 14

Program is now projected to produce 321 units.
Flyaway unit cost average for the program: $139,230,218

------------------------------------------------------------

It appears that F-35B production will be 290 units, lower than 340 units envisioned earlier.
It appears that F-35C production will be 321 units, lower than 340 units envisioned earlier.
Program starts to ramp up production in the FY15-16 timeframe.
F-35B URF is higher than F-35C
Flyaway unit cost average for the program is higher for F-35B than F-35C.

The P-1 sheet left the prior years column for F-35B blank and thus the 290 total buy would be inaccurate. As total procurement numbers are an out-year issue, and the budget docs this year's snapshot, the total buy numbers are largely a wag anyway.

The services' procurement objectives have not changed.

Adjusting for the Navy's accounting system creation of a separate BLI for the F-35B, the correct inventory projection based on the Navy's FY2013 budget for the -B and -C:

F-35B: 290+29= 319 units
F-35C: 321-29= 292 units

Both projections are below the stated goals for the Navy and Marine Corps.
The USAF FY2013 budget maintains the previously announced goal of 1763 units.

It's also now listing the F-35A unit flyaway cost at $112 million for 1,763. Four years ago in the 09 budget estimates the numbers were $83 million. In the USN budget the unit flyaway for 321 C's is $139 million and the 290 B's are $144 million.

At some point the USAF 1,763 number has to come down. Between force reductions, other aircraft, the budget crunch, etc., this long projected number is not tenable.

lb wrote:

It's also now listing the F-35A unit flyaway cost at $112 million for 1,763. Four years ago in the 09 budget estimates the numbers were $83 million. In the USN budget the unit flyaway for 321 C's is $139 million and the 290 B's are $144 million.

At some point the USAF 1,763 number has to come down. Between force reductions, other aircraft, the budget crunch, etc., this long projected number is not tenable.

Let's not forget about the C-17 saga. The original, cold-war-threat order was for 210, but as the program went over budget and tensions eased, it was cut back to only 120. The USAF now has 203 of the things and will probably end up with more than 220. Seeing as the F-35 will be in production for a fairly long period, I wouldn't be surprised to see orders cut, only to be made up at a later date when the money's there.

lb wrote:

It's also now listing the F-35A unit flyaway cost at $112 million for 1,763. Four years ago in the 09 budget estimates the numbers were $83 million. In the USN budget the unit flyaway for 321 C's is $139 million and the 290 B's are $144 million.

I'm not sure about your numbers... but maybe we're looking at different things. The URF of the FY17 F-35A is $88.718 million dollars, and to complete listed as $97.272 million. This might be a function of the changing year of these documents. For example, calculating by inflation, a 2008 estimate of 83 million is actually $87 million in today's dollars, pretty close to the 88 million for the FY17 aircraft.

The numbers I used is the average unit flyaway cost in the FY2013 Budgets of the USAF and USN for the entire buy of all 2,374. Unit flyaway is the number used in budget discussions between Congress and DOD and is the only line item flyaway cost listed now in budget docs for the entire program. In my experience those wishing to portray the cost of any system as too high will use gross weapon system costs or total costs. Conversely those wishing to show the program costing less will use things like REC flyaway. There's a reason unit flyaway is the norm.

Specifically if you look at the FY13 USAF P-40 page 1 (page 65 in the doc) you'll note the only unit costs listed are either unit flyaway and gross weapon system cost. As far as projected FY17 USAF F-35's the same page lists a projected cost of $107 million unit flyaway. How much we pay for the projected 1,763 USAF F-35A's is the number that actually matters not how much the aircraft costs in any one year. Assuming the USAF does eventually purchase 1,763.

In any case all these numbers are simply current projections. There is no evidence whatsoever that these numbers will not continue to increase over time, as they have, and the only thing really worth discussing is the rate of increase. JPO finally has some excellent leadership and in my view the rate of increase need not be as dramatic as it has been. In any case the brand new projections are $112 million average unit flyaway for the USAF's A's.

Forum: General F-35 Forum

F-35 FY2013 Program Acquisition Costs