Forum: Program and politics

It amuses me immensely why the UK Guvmnt agonise over everything. For example the F-35B decision was made a decade? or so ago after much agonising? Then many years developing CVF for F-35B ops with everything else that goes with it. Why? Why if the F-35C was always a better choice? I have read lots of reasons why which may not be applicable today but still and all. Why?

What a demoralising waste of effort and money for the STOVL experts (RN/RAF). Waste money to save money - always a good strategy.

Sure the F-35C has longer range and more internal weapon payload capacity but only in that respect does it differ from the F-35B - unlike the assertions of the BAGwell above. Early days as always. I'll repeat myself - it will not surprise me at all if the Lightning II UK course goes jagged again.

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spazsinbad wrote:

It amuses me immensely why the UK Guvmnt agonise over everything. For example the F-35B decision was made a decade? or so ago after much agonising? Then many years developing CVF for F-35B ops with everything else that goes with it. Why? Why if the F-35C was always a better choice? I have read lots of reasons why which may not be applicable today but still and all. Why?

What a demoralising waste of effort and money for the STOVL experts (RN/RAF). Waste money to save money - always a good strategy.

Sure the F-35C has longer range and more internal weapon payload capacity but only in that respect does it differ from the F-35B - unlike the assertions of the BAGwell above. Early days as always. I'll repeat myself - it will not surprise me at all if the Lightning II UK course goes jagged again.

Mate, if you have a read through the history of our post war involvement with carriers, this one is running so smoothly by comparison, it's a dream Smile

Seriously, read the faffing around with post war conversions, including one carrier that was 80% complete on her refit, at which point they decided new steam plant might be a good idea and pulled her apart again..

Some of the stuff in there, you couldn't make up.

I totally take your point about how it's taken so long and cost so much to get to this position and it's been painful for me to watch. However, I note you're still focussed on the F35 as being solely for the carrier - they're not - they're effectively now the replacement for Tornado as well as Harrier in the strike role.

From that point of view, for the *UK* F35C makes more sense. The B decision was taken originally in the belief that a joint force of B would replace the Harrier force and Tornado would be replaced by FOAS.

Given the current position, a single common airframe with reasonable legs and payload makes more sense.

I was never a big fan of the B anyways - STOVL is something you do if you *have* to - with a 65Kt carrier, we don't...

Ian

spazsinbad wrote:

I note the extra cost of 'maus92' proposals also. Cost to operate two fast carrier jet types as well as EW aircraft. Whereas STOVL had F-35Bs and a EW solution of some unknown kind - in the wings.

Added capability adds cost, no argument there. Hey, if the French can (afford to) operate multiple types, surely the Brits can manage... Plus they seem to working towards greater cooperation and interoperability.

As far as NJG / wideband EW systems, it seems the latest plan is not to integrate any on F-35 (excepting what the Israelis might do...), instead using EA-18 for the near term, and a TBD UAV later (~2030.)

spazsinbad wrote:

Youse funny guys should STFU! Very Happy

I was just funnin ya...

Last edited by spazsinbad on Feb 10, 2012 - 04:25 PM; edited 1 time in total

'maus92' said: "...As far as NJG / wideband EW systems, it seems the latest plan is not to integrate any on F-35 (excepting what the Israelis might do...), instead using EA-18 for the near term, and a TBD UAV later (~2030.)" You refer to USN? How is this relevant to UK (except for UAVs)?

As for changing to F-35C for RN/RAF. Why not do it much earlier if it is so much more useful? QUE?

Conan said: "I was just funnin ya..." Yup and I'll return the favour for this item that is not oft repeated <ironic> (and I give a reference - ain't I a good boybli). <ironic>

Going vertical Developing a short take-off, vertical landing system by JOHN HUTCHINSON

http://www.ingenia.org.uk/ingenia/issue ... hinson.pdf

"...By 1995, both Lockheed Martin and Boeing had made excellent progress and were selected to continue (as ASTOVL eventually evolved into Joint Strike Fighter). The DOD, in fact, added the requirement for CTOL and carrier versions of the same aircraft to be developed with minimum change from the STOVL version needed by the US and UK...."

This quote is long but from a long post about EUROPE/US/NATO/OTAN so I don't feel bad quoting the relevant to this thread bit:

Transatlantic Defense and the New US-UK Partnership By Dr. Richard Weitz 08 Feb 2012

http://www.sldinfo.com/transatlantic-de ... rtnership/

"...Hammond’s [Briish Secretary of State for Defense] visit provides some indication of how the United States might support the new sub-alliance defense agreements.

When they met at the Pentagon on January 6, Panetta and Hammond signed a “Statement of Intent on Carrier Cooperation and Maritime Power Projection” that will provide a framework for increased U.S.-UK cooperation and interoperability in the use and development of aircraft carriers.

DoD Pentagon spokesman George Little described this agreement as “a cutting-edge example of close allies working together in a time of fiscal austerity to deliver a capability needed to maintain our global military edge.”

The intent is to help mitigate the adverse effects on allied naval capabilities due to the major cutbacks in British naval shipbuilding capabilities in recent years. By encouraging U.S. sharing of insights and technologies, the British should be able to save time and money building their future carriers.

The two Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers now under construction, which is scheduled to enter service in 2016 and 2018, will see the Royal Navy adopt expensive but necessary changes to maintain their power projection viability. For example, the British Navy is installing catapults and arrestor gear on the vessels and replacing the VSTOL capable Harriers on current carriers in favor of the catapult-launched F-35Cs used by U.S. Navy carriers.

But it is certainly conceivable the UK could reverse this decision and go back to the F-35B and avoid the costs of transforming their carrier. This would also assist the UK special forces in being able to make more effective use of carrier deck space.

(See also, http://www.sldinfo.com/an-update-on-the ... -carriers/ and http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 2385.xml.)

At the Atlantic Council, Hammond reaffirmed the United Kingdom’s commitment to acquiring the F-35: “We are committed to purchasing the carrier variant, and the regeneration of carrier strike force is at the heart of our defense strategy, and we believe will be – bring a big gain for NATO, and potentially a big relief to U.S. effort in the European sphere.”

Ideally, the U.S.-UK carrier construction cooperation arrangement will extend some sharing to France through the existing British-French carrier cooperation agreement so that the United States, Britain, and France can share insights, technologies, and costs. And the current Bold Alligator 2012 exercise certainly supports such an approach, as the French are heavily engaged in the exercise, and indeed are leading the initial insertion of ground forces...."

Some perhaps interesting bits of info in this French - GOOGLE translated - page:

Update on the program of future British aircraft carrier

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... mp;act=url

Some relevant text retranslated by BabelFish [which seems to have a sense of humour]:

"The design changes involves big changes
To see reappearing British embarked hunting, it will thus be necessary to await off the delivery of the HMS Prince Wales, at best in 2019. To see the rebirth off the British board range, we will cuts to wait off for delivery HMS Prince off Wales, At best in 2019. Compared to initial planning, l' completion of this building was delayed three years, that of its elder being one year old of delay. Compared to the initial schedule, the completion off this building was delayed for three years, that off his senior with has year late. A time made profitable of the industrialists carrying out project (BAE Systems, Thalès and Babcock, joined together with the British ministry of defense within l' Aircraft Carrier Alliance - ACA) to modify off the plans of Prince Wales. With delay in favor off leading industrial project (BAE Systems, Thalès and Babcock, together with the U.K. Ministry off Defence in the Aircraft Carrier Alliance - ACA) to changes the off plane Prince off Wales. The replacement of the F-35B by the F-35C implies, indeed, of heavy modifications compared to the initial design. The replacement off the F-35B F-35C implies, indeed, heavy exchanges from the initial design. For this reason, the British undoubtedly could profit from the work completed between 2006 and 2008 with the French, who then projected to carry out a version with catapults of the CVF, whose design had slightly evolved/moved (with reserves d' spaces in particular) to meet the needs for the National marine. Ace such, the British may cuts benefited from work gives between 2006 and 2008 with the French, who planned so that has off version CVF to catapults, whose design was changed slightly (with reservations including spaces) for meet the needs off the Navy. Despite everything, the passage of Queen Elizabeth to Prince off Wales remains a true technical challenge. Nevertheless, the transition from Queen Elizabeth to the Prince off Wales remains has real technical challenge.

We must, indeed, remove the platform and long set up two catapults to 90 meters, while installing year obliques track with three strands stop and has crash landing barrier. This equipment requires a refitting of the buildings located under the bridge d' take-off so d' to install the associated machinery, for example presses of brakes. Thesis facilities require has redesign off the spaces below the flight deck to install the associated machinery, such ace brake presses. Compared to Queen Elizabeth, Prince off Wales will ask also more for power, in particular because of the catapults, which will not be with vapor but electromagnetic, like those of the new American aircraft carriers of the class Gerald R. Compared to Queen Elizabeth, Prince off Wales also require more power, particularly because off the catapults, that will not steam goal electromagnetic, such ace new aircraft carrier class American Gerald R. Ford (standard CVN 21). Ford (standard CVN 21). By chance, the British had chosen from the beginning the new gas turbine MT30 of the Rolls-Royce, most powerful of the market, which develops 36MW with, according to the British motor mechanic, of the appreciable margins of progression. Luckily, the British had decided from the start to the new MT30 gas turbine from Rolls-Royce, the most powerful market that develops with 36MW, according to the British engine, significant room for improvement. Apart from its two gas turbines, the aircraft carrier will lay out d' an all-electric integrated propulsion (IFEP) developed by Converteam, the two lines d' trees equipped d' a propeller of 33 tons being involved each one by two asynchronous motors. Apart from its two gas turbines, the carrier will cuts year alelectric propulsion integrated (IFEP) developed by Converteam, the two shafts fitted with has propeller 33 tons each being driven by two induction motors. L' together of l' propelling apparatus will develop 80MW, that is to say approximately 50.000 cv on each of the two lines d' trees, the speed of the building having to be able to reach 25 nodes. The entire propulsion develop 80MW, butt 50,000 CVs one each off two shafts, the speed off the vessel must able Be off 25 knots.

Concerning the modification of the bridge d' take-off, BAE Systems developed in Warton a simulator making it possible to validate off the new design of Prince Wales, in particular for l' landing of the F-35C. Butt editing the flight deck, BAE Systems At Warton has developed has simulator to validate the new design off Prince off Wales, including the landing off the F-35C. Tests, in particular, are carried out with pilots of American F/A-18, broken with the operations d' approaches and d' landing on the equipped aircraft carriers d' an oblique track and bits d' stop. Tests are, in particular, made with American F/A-18 piles, trained to approach maneuvers and landing one aircraft carriers with have track oblique strands and stop…."

New UK/France Defense Agreement by Christina Mackenzie at Feb/17/2012

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest

"Today is the first anniversary of the Libyan uprising in which Britain and France put the bilateral defense and security cooperation agreement they reached in November 2010 to practical testing. Coincidentally a UK-French defense and security summit was held in Paris today at which British Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Nicolas Sarkozy said they were “determined to sustain a high level of defense spending, flexible and rapidly deployable forces, interoperability with our Allies and a solid industrial basis.”...

...No doubt frustrated at the lack of any notable progress that has been made in building up the European Union's Common Foreign and Security Policy and its related institutions since Catherine Ashton took over the job of EU High Representative from former NATO Secretary General Javier Solana in December 2009, Cameron and Sarkozy today also agreed to go-it alone and set concrete ambitions for the combined Joint expeditionary Force (CJEF) that they had agreed to set up in November 2010. The force will be an early entry force which should be fully operational in 2016 and available to confront all levels of threat in bilateral, NATO, EU, UN or other operations....

...They also agreed to establish a deployable Combined Joint Force Headquarters by 2016 using existing French and UK high-readiness national Force Headquarters staff but that can be extended to include staff from other nations participating in a multinational operation....

...There are 37 separate points in today's document. You can read a full version of it here:

http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/uk-fran ... -security/

UK-France declaration on security and defence 17 February 2012

"New declaration agreed at the UK-France Summit.

...13. On aircraft Carrier cooperation, we will continue to build a joint maritime task group force. The UK and France aim to have, by the early 2020s, the ability to deploy a UK-French integrated carrier strike group incorporating assets owned by both countries...."

Assuming the two nations have the political will and both agree on the same objective then this might actually have some significance. That said the notion that France would get involved in say a hypothetical Falklands operation is absurd. Frankly the whole matter is about joint political cover over France only having one carrier and the RN not having one the rest of this decade. Cooperation is not actually a substitute for lack of capability. The cost sharing on nuclear weapons and other matters are far more significant than the hypothetical joint carrier task force operations.

First F-35C flight for the United Kingdom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeAIdpsb ... r_embedded

"Uploaded by NAVAIRSYSCOM on Feb 22, 2012
Quick footage of the first flight, with aero-braking landing, by a Royal Air Force test pilot in the carrier variant of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter. Squadron Leader Jim Schofield flew CF-2 (the second F-35C test aircraft) on Feb. 21, 2012. The F-35 will be known as the Joint Combat Aircraft in the United Kingdom. The UK was the first international partner to join the multinational F-35 program."

British Test Pilot Marks Milestone In The Joint Combat Aircraft
(NAVY NEWS SERVICE 22 FEB 12) ... Victor Chen, F-35 Integrated Test Force Public Affairs

http://www.hrana.org/news.asp#BritishTestPilot

"..."The F-35 has the best handling of any jet I've flown, which means it's going to be easier to land on a ship than current aircraft. And pilots can devote all of their attention to the mission," said Jim Schofield, RAF squadron leader.

"Combined with the world's best sensors which allow the pilot to find and target anything that's out there, and a stealthy signature, which means the enemy can't do the same to you, this is exactly the aircraft the UK needs to provide the best protection for our soldiers, sailors and airmen for the next 35 years," he further explained.

Schofield's flight is the latest in a series of milestones for the UK's JCA program, which included the first F-35C launch on the test electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) Nov. 18, 2011, and the rollout of the first UK F-35 from the production line four days later. EMALS is the current launching system of record for the future HMS Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, currently under construction.

"This is another major step forward for the UK's Joint Combat Aircraft programme," said Group Capt. Harv Smyth, the UK's JSF national deputy. "Squadron Leader Schofield is now test-flying both the [short takeoff and vertical landing] and carrier variants of the F-35, which affords the UK unprecedented early learning regarding this 5th-generation air system. This is a very exciting period for JCA, as not only are we now testing both the B and the C variants, but we look forward to taking delivery of our first production F-35 aircraft later this year."...

Told ya this thread is aptly titled and there will be more of this stuff in the years and months ahead... There is a lot of junk in the article not repeated below but others may find that junk useful. Perhaps the entire article is junk like most of any reporting from UK these days but then again - what do I know. Rolling Eyes

UK aircraft carrier plans in confusion as ministers revisit square one
Decision expected by Easter [brought to you by the BUNNY!] on which US joint strike fighter Britain will buy: ministers now want to revert to original choice

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/0 ... ke-fighter

"...The government announced in last autumn's strategic defence review that it had decided to buy the "cats and flaps" [are you kidding me!] (catapults and arrester gear) version of the US joint strike fighter....

....Now, in an extraordinary volte-face, the Ministry of Defence says the "cats and flaps" planes may well be cheaper but it would be too expensive to redesign a carrier – more than £1bn – to accommodate them. The ministry is thus faced with the prospect of renegotiating a deal with the US, reverting to its original plan – namely buying the short take-off and vertical landing version of the aircraft, even though it is acknowledged to be less effective and more expensive.

The latest chapter in the troubled saga of Britain's future aircraft carriers – whose own estimated costs have soared – was raised on Thursday in a letter to the defence secretary, Philip Hammond, from Jim Murphy, his Labour opposite number.

Murphy referred to "worrying suggestions" that the government was about to change its mind about the kind of aircraft to buy from the US. "It is vital that there is now clarity on the government's plans for this vital area of the defence equipment programme," he wrote.

Murphy said the decision in the defence review to scrap the Harrier fleet meant the UK would have no carrier aircraft capability until 2020 – and then only one carrier would be operational.

Defence officials said that the government was "re-assessing" its earlier decision because, they indicated, of pressures on the defence budget.

HMS Queen Elizabeth, the first carrier, will be mothballed immediately it is launched in 2016, according to existing plans. The second, HMS Prince of Wales, will be able to put to sea by 2020, but it is not known how many planes will be able to fly from it – nor what kind.

The two carriers, originally priced at £3.5bn, are now estimated to cost £6.2bn. According to the Commons public accounts committee, the cost is likely to icrease to as much as £12bn...."

Perhaps they could lease it to the USN and have it manned by a joint US-UK crew. The USN could supply the F/A-18's and would save the UK the need to buy a transition capability.

Transition to what? I don't understand 'madrat'. Thanks for explaining.

The article is a bit jumbled (all of it at the URL) however I read it saying that converting even one carrier to 'cat/trap' will be too expensive so the thinking is to revert to F-35Bs. The first carrier Queen Elizabeth is not going to be converted to cat/trap (not sure if the ski jump will be removed or has been removed by now) but anyway having both carriers as ski jumpers saves money and the F-35Bs come along whenever.

This is NOT the last word though. Even if the EasterBunny says to go skijump for both with F-35Bs don't be surprised if by 2015 or later some other decision is made. The MoD are notorious for this humbug decision making.

spazsinbad wrote:

Transition to what? I don't understand 'madrat'. Thanks for explaining.

The article is a bit jumbled (all of it at the URL) however I read it saying that converting even one carrier to 'cat/trap' will be too expensive so the thinking is to revert to F-35Bs. The first carrier Queen Elizabeth is not going to be converted to cat/trap (not sure if the ski jump will be removed or has been removed by now) but anyway having both carriers as ski jumpers saves money and the F-35Bs come along whenever.

This is NOT the last word though. Even if the EasterBunny says to go skijump for both with F-35Bs don't be surprised if by 2015 or later some other decision is made. The MoD are notorious for this humbug decision making.

The Guardian spent four years reporting that the carriers were being sold off, and were contradicted by the MOD almost weekly. Given the amount of factual errors in that article, I'm not going to get excited.

Ian

Forum: Program and politics

UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C