Forum: Program and politics

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The F-35 unable to meet South Korea’s fighter competition requirements? The F-35 unable to meet South Korea’s fighter competition requirements?

On Jan. 30, South Korea released a request for proposal for a next generation fighter plane that the ROKAF (Republic of Korea Air Force) is going to procure within the so-called F-X stage III.

Given the recent reports (later denied by the company), according to which Boeing has stopped development of the modifications for the F-15 Silent Eagle, the project saw the Lockheed Martin F-35 as the favorite choice. So far.

[...]

Noteworthy, the Eurofighter Typhoon is the only non-stealthy aircraft in the South Korean competition that, initially, featured the radar-evading capability as one of the tender’s mandatory requirements (later lifted to have more choice).

Next months will tell us whether Boeing will be able develop the Silent Eagle in time, Lockheed Martin will convice Seoul that the Lightning II can meet all the requirements or Eurofighter will walk away with the $7.62billion contract.

There could even be a fourth option in that Korea sticks with what it knows and orders a further 60 F-15Ks like those that have recently taken part to the Red Flag 12-2 at Nellis AFB.

Source: http://theaviationist.com/2012/02/08/ko ... mpetition/

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More or less the same information here: We just lost a land called Korea!

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... rt-15.html

This article is total BS. The F-35 already reached Mach 1.6. Further more, history will tell you that fighters almost never exceed that threshold. It's acceleration over top speed everytime. Simple metrics here.

Agreed. Though there are still structural issues with the airframe associated with pulling sustained 9.9 G turns, I think any decently informed individual can conclude that the F-35 is good enough to handle anything the North Koreans can throw at them and even return the favor when strike packages sneak past their defenses and wipe out their military leaders in an airstrike.

"...Though there are still structural issues with the airframe associated with pulling sustained 9.9 G turns..." Where is this a requirement?

I think the Koreans have altered the requirements because they realize that the F-35 isn't really needed yet. Since the current goal is to only replace the F-4, it's better for them to expand their options to include fighters that are already in service.

Sorry for the poor wording. I was talking about how the F-35's performance is clearly finite in scope and isn't THAT much of an immense improvement over other aircraft in terms of being able to bear the load of performing over 9 Gs. However, it should be nimble enough and fast enough to outperform anything North Korea can throw at it.

tacf-x wrote:

Sorry for the poor wording. I was talking about how the F-35's performance is clearly finite in scope and isn't THAT much of an immense improvement over other aircraft in terms of being able to bear the load of performing over 9 Gs.

Are you serious? Rolling Eyes

Hmmmmmm... Name one acft FULLY loaded with gas, armament, sensors, and in a stealth configuration that offers a 9G envelope which is what the F-35 offers? None. Not even the F-22 offers that capability.

tacf-x wrote:

However, it should be nimble enough and fast enough to outperform anything North Korea can throw at it.

F-X isn't about North Korea at all; they are looking for a J-20 killer, or the company willing to provide engineering assistance in the development of a J-20 killer if none is available off the market.

When it comes to killing J-20s (which I agree is the reason for the requirement) the F-35 would be sufficient. Long range it should cream the J-20... but if the Dragons get close enough then the non-tvc 35's might have some issues. Down to piloting I guess.

If this article is correct, then South Korea is essentially writing the rules to exclude or substantially hinder the F-35. No one knows why they want to do that.

If they wanted a:
A) pure interceptor
B) fighter plane tomorrow
the requirements could be structured differently.

One possibility is that South Korea is trying to extract concessions from the US and Lockheed before they sign onto the program. I think this is the likeliest explanation; but no one knows. Perhaps they want the same level of industrial deals as the Japanese? Maybe the South Koreans think that they need to justify not selecting the F-35 immediately? Its an odd situation.

firstimpulse wrote:

... if the Dragons get close enough then the non-tvc 35's might have some issues. Down to piloting I guess.

The Lightning II's DAS would defeat TV-Nozzle engines IMO.

When you stand that Dragon on it's @$$ or pull 7+G below stall speed trying to get a shot at an F-35, DAS will have you locked up, tracked and dead; all without the F-35 slowing down. If the first F-35 by doesn't kill you're sub-stall target screaming hot motors trying to shove that tub through the sky, the second F-35 in the formation will; without even turning his head.

Cool

TEG

arkadyrenko wrote:

If this article is correct

It is correct.

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One possibility is that South Korea is trying to extract concessions from the US and Lockheed before they sign onto the program. I think this is the likeliest explanation

The no. 1 evaluation criterion is tech transfer, no. 2 is price. These two accounts for at least 65% of total scores.

Since F-35 ranks at the bottom in both criteria, it is pointless to have F-35 in the contest. Normally it is good to have lots of bidders in a contest, but the US DoD is trying to turn this into a political decision like Japan instead of a strictly technical/commercial decision like India. In that case the presence of F-35 in the contest actually harms the competition, so it is better to just eliminate F-35 and have the Silent Eagle represent the American interest.

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Perhaps they want the same level of industrial deals as the Japanese?

They are not asking for industrial participation as they have enough work to sustain the domestic industry until the USAF T-X decision; they traded the industrial participation benefits for the tech transfer. It is a straight import deal otherwise, although more points will be given if the frequently replaced parts could be localized for the sake of maintainability.

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Maybe the South Koreans think that they need to justify not selecting the F-35 immediately? Its an odd situation.

They need new jets to replace fossilized F4/F-5s ASAP. This is why they are asking for 10 combat-ready jets delivered in 2016 and complete the delivery by 2020. A schedule that F-35 cannot meet and F-35 will be priced out of contest if the US had to deliver 10~12 jets a year during the LRIP 8, 9, 10, and 11 period.

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Lockheed Dismisses Korea F-35 Schedule Issue Feb 22, 2012 By Robert Wall

"SINGAPORE — A Pentagon decision to reduce near-term F-35 purchases will not hinder Lockheed Martin from meeting South Korea’s demand for an early 2016 first delivery under the F-X3 fighter program, insists David Scott, director of F-35 international customer engagement for the prime contractor.

Current production capacity can build 48 aircraft annually, and with the U.S. looking to buy around 30 aircraft per year, there are slots to meet South Korea’s demands, as well as other near-term international buyers such as Japan, Turkey, Italy and Norway....

[...]

Lockheed Martin would need a waiver to sell the fighter to South Korea because of a U.S. prohibition of exporting hardware before an aircraft has entered service with the U.S. The waiver is likely to be granted, though, with the U.S. government having already granted one for Japan [...]"

Source: Source: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... /20/05.xml

Forum: Program and politics

Will South Korea reject the F-35 ?