Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

>>Let me guess- you've arrived at these conclusions based upon countless hours studying You Tube videos/comments, Wikipedia, APA, and Russian forums? >>

Even Carlo Kopp would not bet his money on SU-35 when it goes against the Raptor.
One F-22 with its awesome AESA radar could easily take on three SU-35's.
F-35 versus SU-35 ?? I am not so sure.. The SU-35 would outperform the F-35 in most cardinal parameters and capabilities.

F-16.net Sponsor

and the F-35s AESA is more advanced than the F-22s...

The stellar attribute of the F-22 — its invisibility on enemy radar due to a computer-aided stealth design — is a “myth,” Sprey said. That is because in order to locate the enemy beyond visual range, the Raptor (like every other fighter) must turn on its own radar, immediately betraying its location.

[Link pending approval]

[Link pending approval];feature=related

The F-35 has more CPU power behind a smaller AESA array. The F-22A is the big dumb brother of the pair, but the pattern of its radar isn't loaded onto any non-French radar warning device.

Last edited by SpudmanWP on Jan 15, 2012 - 07:24 PM; edited 1 time in total

sergio-moscow,

Do yourself a favor, never take what Sprey says at face value.

The F-22 has battled (virtually in war games) and has an AMAZING record of taking out many enemies without them ever knowing the F-22 was in the area. One aspect that the F-22 shares with the F-35 (besides the LPI radar) is it's automatic LPI/LPD datalinks. In other words, a F-22 that is 100+ miles away can be using it's radar and feeding it's tracks to the much closer F-22 who is not using his radar. The target "may" get a hint of the F-22 100 miles away, but he will likely never see the one who actually shoots a missile at him.

hcobb wrote:

The F-35 has more CPU power behind a smaller AESA array. The F-22A is the big dumb brother of the pair, but the pattern of its radar isn't loaded onto any non-French radar warning device.

It has a smaller dish so it has a smaller maximum range, but it is still more capable in every respect within that smaller range. BTW that smaller maximum range still exceeds the launch envelope of all AAMs and the detection range of the F-35 by any existing or planned radar system. Unless it is fighting against other F-35s or Raptors, the F-35 WILL have first look- first shot.

sergio-moscow wrote:

The stellar attribute of the F-22 — its invisibility on enemy radar due to a computer-aided stealth design — is a “myth,” Sprey said. That is because in order to locate the enemy beyond visual range, the Raptor (like every other fighter) must turn on its own radar, immediately betraying its location.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITbGBmaqQkk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQB4W8C0 ... re=related

Which would explain how F-22s got within gun range, undetected, in numerous exercises. To claim that turning on the APG-77 will immediately betray its location, is nonsense. A RWR system needs time analyze signals, before it recognizes that signal as being A -a signal, B -hostile, and C -where it originated. The F-22 doesn't fly around constantly emitting, in order for its radar to be effective. It sends out short bursts, of random waveforms(changing over 1000 times per second), in narrow patterns, and only using the minimum amount of energy needed. Due to the network centric nature of the Raptor, the emitting task can be shared if that's more beneficial, or a single aircraft can emit. In any event, all of the Raptors will know what the others see, and can fire on a target using third party information. If a foe is emitting anything, then the Raptor can simply use the ALR-94 for passive engagements.

SpudmanWP wrote:

sergio-moscow,

AMAZING record of taking out many enemies without them ever knowing the F-22 was in the area. .

and against any opponents he won these victories? I read an article in which the [Link pending approval] Air Force after the defeat in the battle of training (I think against the Indians) have decided to change the training of pilots, and now they will learn to fight not only against aircraft 3-4 generations but also against equal opponents.

Not for War

Why is the [Link pending approval] F-22 was removed from participation in the Libyan operations

After the start of military operations of the Western coalition in Libya, the [Link pending approval] suddenly began to explain the reasons for them "the most perfect fighter" - F-22 Raptor - does not take part in the hostilities, although such an explanation from the [Link pending approval] military, like, nobody demanded. Even more, the [Link pending approval] Air Force suddenly found it necessary to publicly explain why they will not upgrade the communications system of F-22, and also because of the identified problems have cut marginal altitude aircraft more than doubled. Given that the fighter for six years of his life has never been involved in combat operations, the behavior of [Link pending approval] military forces to reflect on the real possibilities of "[Link pending approval];

Would be able to

The military operation of the Western coalition in Libya began on 19 March 2011. It was attended by Air Force and Navy of Great Britain, France, USA, Italy and Canada, with major combat tasks performed fighters F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, Dassault Rafale and the Panavia Tornado GR4. Shortly before the operation, dubbed "The Odyssey. Dawn", some American and European analysts anticipated participation of the American fighter F-22 Raptor, the world's only combat fifth generation aircraft, entered service.

However, the expectations of experts did not materialize - F-22 in the skies of Libya and has not appeared, and, according to the [Link pending approval] Air Force does not appear in the future. Despite the fact that other members of the Western coalition F-22s participate in military operations and did not expect the [Link pending approval] suddenly decided to defend himself, calling a lot of reasons why the famous "Raptors" have not been designed to ensure no-fly zone over the territory of Libya.

The first on the issue March 22, 2011 expressed an analyst with the Lexington Institute, Loren Thompson. According to him, the most advanced [Link pending approval] fighter plane simply not designed to perform military tasks, such as those implemented in Libya at the beginning of "The Odyssey". Recall, the main goal of the first stage of the military operation was to provide a no-fly zone over the territory of the African states, for which it was necessary to knock out all the air defense system, under the control of forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi. In this confrontation between the Libyan aircraft shall not be taken (and indeed, from the beginning of "The Odyssey" No Libyan plane was not seen in the air).

Thompson noted that the F-22 is not physically designed to attack ground targets. The aircraft can be armed with two corrected bombs JDAM caliber 450 kilograms, which can, however, striking stationary, but moving targets. In addition, as it turned out, the F-22 radar is not able to map the area, as do the synthetic aperture radar, and thus can not independently choose the ground targets. This effectively means that if the F-22 in its present form and will be used for the bombardment of some objects, information about the order will be loaded into the aircraft on-board computer before takeoff.

But even on this list shortcomings of American fifth-generation fighter has not ended. It turned out that the fighter has limited connectivity. The aircraft can communicate only with other F-22 in the link. Raptor is equipped and "truncated" system communication standard Link 16, is widely used by the [Link pending approval] military and NATO, but it works only on receiving operational data from other aircraft and helicopters and can not be used for data transmission. When creating the F-22 engineers have deliberately limited the opportunities for communication fighter to provide even more of its low profile - it is assumed that in case of military aircraft applications will always act in a mode of radio silence.

At Thompson's conclusions could close my eyes - is that the analysts tell us things that are later contradicted by any military or did not go beyond speculation and conjecture, finding no actual confirmation. However, at the end of March 2011 on the F-22 non-participation in the Libyan operations decided to speak out personally commanding the [Link pending approval] Air Force Norton Schwartz. According to him, an American fighter does not participate in the Libyan operations because geographically located far from the combat area.

"If the F-22 were placed on one of the bases in Europe, they certainly would take part in the Libyan operations," - said Schwartz. He added that "since the operation in Libya's relatively fast, it was decided to use the various resources that are located [Link pending approval]; At the present time, the American F-22, according to the [Link pending approval] Air Force, based in Virginia, New Mexico, California, Florida, Alaska and Hawaii. At the end of his speech, Schwartz said that "the fact of non-participation in the F-22 specifically this operation is not an indication of its [Link pending approval];

On the same day, speaking at a hearing of the subcommittee on Appropriations [Link pending approval] House of Representatives, Schwartz tried to explain the reason why the Air Force in 2010 decided to abandon the upgrade of communication systems of the F-22, which was scheduled to take place in the program Increment [Link pending approval] According to Schwartz, the F-22 is planned to install a communications system standard MADL, which is currently being established for future F-35 Lightning II. The new system MADL has not yet been tested in combat use, and hence its use on the F-22, according to Schwartz, the mean extra expenses and a risk to which the Air Force can not go. With the remaining parameters of the program Increment [Link pending approval] will be implemented.

Former head of the [Link pending approval] Air Force Intelligence David Deptula, who attended the hearings in the House of Representatives, harshly criticized the rejection of the installation MADL on the F-22 fighter jets. According to him, it was pointless to create "the most advanced fighter in the world," so you do not have the ability to communicate with other aircraft. "There are a penny wisdom and pound foolishness on" - these words Deptula said the [Link pending approval] Air Force decision to refuse the installation of systems for MADL F-22.

Curiously, the F-22 was adopted by the [Link pending approval] Air Force in 2005. Since then, he did not participate in any military campaign, which the [Link pending approval] conducted outside the country. On the one hand, the American fighter is too expensive to participate in military operations in Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan or Somalia. But then again, how else can you check all the capabilities of the aircraft, which in fact his "power" has not yet proved.

Technical trouble

Another blow to the image of [Link pending approval] fifth generation fighter aircraft was delivered in late March 2011 when it became clear that the [Link pending approval] Air Force introduced a limit on the maximum height of the flight of F-22. According to the order of the Aviation Combat Command (ACC) The [Link pending approval] Air Force, the maximum flight altitude of the F-22 should not exceed [Link pending approval] thousand meters - despite the fact that, according to the specifications, the "ceiling" "Raptor" is about 20 thousand feet. The reason for this decision was an investigation whose purpose is to check the on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS), installed on many [Link pending approval] Air Force fighter jets.

According to ACC, used by military OBOGS may be defective. In particular, it is assumed that the cause of the loss of F-22 November 17, 2010 in Alaska could be a problem OBOGS. This system is responsible for the generation of oxygen supply and breathing mixture in the pilot's mask at high altitudes. Because of the failure OBOGS pilot of the crashed F-22 Jeffrey Haney could experience hypoxia and lose consciousness. Introducing a ban on conventional flights, the [Link pending approval] Air Force while also specified that it does not apply to [Link pending approval] fighter combat missions, which are still restricted in their movements.

Limitation of ACC explained that at the flight altitude of 15 thousand meters or more pilot has at his disposal only ten seconds before losing consciousness when the oxygen supply is terminated in a mask. This time is not enough to reduce the aircraft to an altitude where you can breathe without a mask with a breathing mixture. Height of [Link pending approval] thousand meters was considered safe command, because the pilot in the event of termination of oxygen have the opportunity to decline to [Link pending approval] per thousand feet - the height at which it is already possible to breathe without a mask.

However, the authority of the F-22 was blown up much earlier. In February 2010 the [Link pending approval] Air Force for some time suspended all flights "Raptor" - it turned out that the body of the aircraft is unstable to moisture and easy to corrosion. Corrosion of the fighters was detected earlier, but in this case was that the system of drainage of excess moisture from the light aircraft and bad constructively with the task fails. As a result of rust appeared on some elements of light aircraft and even inside the cockpit, and appeared corrosion could cause problems system bailout.

In 2009, the [Link pending approval] Air Force as an experiment sent 12 F-22 from Alaska to base at Guam Andersen. Rainy weather on the island proved to be merciless to combat vehicles, and it soon became clear that in conditions of high humidity aircraft electronic systems become unstable, and the cooling system of computing components in a humidified atmosphere simply refuse to serve. Was it corrected this defect is unknown. But we know that since the F-22 in more humid climates have never been used.

That same year, former Lockheed Martin engineer Derrol Olsen accused the [Link pending approval] company to create a defective F-22. According to Olsen, the F-22 aircraft was applied to a few extra layers of coating to a fighter could take all the necessary radar tests. Marriage is also in the fact that radio-absorbing coating F-22 is easily erased from the fuselage under the influence of water, oil or fuel. At Lockheed Martin Olsen rejected the charges, saying that the aircraft used in the manufacture of durable and high-quality radio-absorbing coating.

Modernization
Beginning in 2012 the [Link pending approval] Air Force will spend to upgrade F-22 of $ 500 million annually. In particular, it will begin a program of modernization Increment [Link pending approval], which assumes the installation of new avionics, avionics and software. Through this program, the fighter learns to map the terrain, select ground targets and to use new bomb SDB. The implementation of the modernization program Increment [Link pending approval] will begin in 2014. According to unconfirmed reports, as a result of the F-22 program will receive the updated software, some new design elements and new computer systems.
Two years earlier, was found a funny problem with the onboard computer F-22. In February 2007, the [Link pending approval] Air Force decided to withdraw the first F-22 outside the country, surpassed the number of fighters at Kadena air base on Okinawa. The flight of six F-22 ejected from Hawaii, after crossing the 180th meridian - the International Date Line - completely lost and partly navigation - links. At Air Force Base in Hawaii fighters are back, visually following a refueling aircraft. Causing the problem was a bug in the software, due to which the failure occurred in the computer by changing the time.

And it is only those issues about which the Air Force or the [Link pending approval] Department of Defense announced officially. It is not excluded that there are hidden defects of aircraft. For example, as a problem with the B-2, which resulted in cracked metal panel in the tail of the plane between the engines, it became known only after engineers found a way to Northrop Grumman to fix it.

Problems with sophisticated military equipment in general are not something extraordinary, because some features of operation can not account for in advance. These "childhood diseases" are removed later in the course of use and accounted for more new developments. But in the history of the F-22 remains much unexplained. Because, really, is not clear why the United States in the case of the Libyan operation, suddenly began to make excuses for the lack of fighter aircraft in the ranks of the coalition, although in the case of Iraq or Afghanistan, such attempts have been taken.
. March 31, 2011 Main Accounting Office, the [Link pending approval] announced that the purchase price of one F-22 [Link pending approval] Air Force is [Link pending approval] million dollars. In total, the [Link pending approval] military should get 187 F-22, 170 of which have been accepted for service.

For me it comes down to this:

Given that the F-22's are in short supply and that no threat materialized that would validate the increased usage of their limited airframe hours, I have no problem with them sitting out the Libyan operation.

[quote="sergio-moscow"]Not for War

Why is the U.S. F-22 was removed from participation in the Libyan operations

quote]

French Rafale and RAF Typhoons were perfectly capable of dealing with any threat imaginable, would have been waste of time for the Raptor.

The Raptor was grounded for the vast majority of the Libyan operations. When it wasnt grounded, it had flight restrictions placed on it.

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

and the F-35s AESA is more advanced than the F-22s...

But F-35 is still a paper plane , exists only in prototypes...I am not sure we will ever be able to see an operational F-35 !

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... riers.html

Well if the F35 is a paper plane, well nothing to worry about since that makes the Pak T-50 and J-20 meer twinkles in some ones eyes. And how many SU35s are there?

As of now, the 3rd serial Su-35S made first flight recently.

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20120117/541569432.html

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

SU-35... does it match up with F-22/F-35?