Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Every aircraft created since the dawn of time has needed upgrading and received it to keep up with the times. Do you neglect to realize this with examples like the P-51, F-86 Sabre and F-16?

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the A-36 Apache, the FJ-1 Fury, and the Lightweight Day Fighter?

hcobb wrote:

Actually I'm talking about:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123168156
"Our commitment to this aircraft is underscored by the 6 and-a half billion dollars provided over the next few years to upgrade the existing F-22 fleet to be fully mission-capable."

You can of course question the neutrality and reliability of that source if you like.

It depends on the context of the statement "fully mission capable." It needs no upgrades to be fully mission capable in the air dominance role. The upgrades are to provide greater a2g capability, and provide increased standardization between the Block 30/35s. Ideally, all combat coded jets will be brought up to the Block 35 standard. Then you have to factor in other upgrades such as the MLDs for use against fighters, datalink improvements, etc..., and the potential for the cheek arrays, HMD, and AIRST. It's hardly a fair critique of the initial design, to say that it doesn't have every capability now, that it eventually will have over its service life.

That_Engine_Guy wrote:

Nor would many of us argue that more Raptors should be produced WITH the upgrades in them.

Nor would many of us argue a modified Raptor FB model for the USAF's new bomber program.

The expensive part is paid for, why not utilize it.

If you spend $150 setup fee to get T-shirts printed, why would you only order 10? Likewise if you spend $60B on on setting up a fighter program, why would you CUT your order to 187 and drive the costs way up?

We have the cookie cutters, why not make more cookies?

If we're selling the freshest cookies (with more goodies) to the entire planet, why not sell our 'older' cookies to others as well. If they got the $$ we've got the baked goods!

Cheers

TEG

I hadn't thought of that! Me could make them pay for our new upgraded Raptors. I bet Japan would pay 300mil. each for 50 F-22s. Maybe I'll vote for TEG as a write it next year. Who's with me! All in faver say I.
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TSFG

Let's go over the upgrade schedule one more time.

The current upgrade schedule is:

Increment 3.1 now entering service adds capabilities for SDB, SAR, and electronic attack.
Update 4 in 2012 will add a rudimentary capability for the AIM-120D.
Increment 3.2A will be fielded in 2014 with Link 16 and electronic warfare improvements.
Update 5 in 2015 will add an initial capability for the AIM-9X.
In 2016 the fleet will be upgraded to 36 Block 20 training aircraft and 149 Block 30/35 operational aircraft.
Increment 3.2B in 2017 will add full capability for the air to air missiles, and improved geolocation.
Increment 3.2C is still being defined.

Everybody clear on that now?

Should result in a rather scary multirole fighter around the time the Raptor-skis and Yellow Raptors make it into service. I'm glad to see that the SAR is getting priority, since that should shut up the clowns in and out of office who hate it for not having stellar A2G performance. Though I consider being able to lob a GBU-31 50 miles fro 50,000 feet and M1.5 to be quite nice.

The Raptor will never see combat against a 5th gen fighter.

The Raptor runs out its 30 year clock starting in the 2020s and the foreign designs will take at least another decade after that.

The PAK-FA is already adding more than a years delay every year.

Your math does not add up. The last F-22 just came off the line which means 30 years gets us to 2040.

I said starting in the 2020s. The Raptors were produced slowly over many years.

If true, it could be perceived as rather alarming that full AIM-120D + AIM-9X capability won't potentially be slated until 2017 or 2018 if a one year slip. Seems like a flawed plan imho, although one would hope decision makers have a good handle on what's actually required. When will full JDRADM's (if successful) capability be mature then, 2025?

As far as 'the math being wrong' goes, one should actually expect continued surprises to the maturity and capabilities timeline of competing entry models around the world. To date, officials have been rather caught off guard and surprised, so there's no evidence to suggest that a mature increment 3.1-equivalent (at the least) capability of say, the PAKFA, won't be ready by around 2020.

This is one of the reasons why UAI is such a game changer. With a fleet as small as the F-22's, updating the software for the purpose of newer weapons is a very costly endeavor, both in money and time.

hcobb wrote:

I said starting in the 2020s. The Raptors were produced slowly over many years.

The Block 20s reached IOC in 2005. 2035 would be 35yrs. I suspect that just like every other aircraft in service(especially considering the tooling was preserved for SLEPs, and other modifications), the Raptor will still be operating well past 2040. F-15s have been in service since the mid 70s, and will be in service till at least 2030. It's asinine to believe that Raptors would be retired starting in the 2020s.

hcobb wrote:

Let's go over the upgrade schedule one more time.

The current upgrade schedule is:

Increment 3.1 now entering service adds capabilities for SDB, SAR, and electronic attack.
Update 4 in 2012 will add a rudimentary capability for the AIM-120D.
Increment 3.2A will be fielded in 2014 with Link 16 and electronic warfare improvements.
Update 5 in 2015 will add an initial capability for the AIM-9X.
In 2016 the fleet will be upgraded to 36 Block 20 training aircraft and 149 Block 30/35 operational aircraft.
Increment 3.2B in 2017 will add full capability for the air to air missiles, and improved geolocation.
Increment 3.2C is still being defined.

Everybody clear on that now?

We're all clear that there are planned upgrades which the Raptor will get over its entire life(just like every other fighter). What's nonsense, is to say that this is evidence that the Raptor is currently not combat ready. It's been combat ready since 2005, and is only getting more capable with each upgrade.

geogen wrote:

If true, it could be perceived as rather alarming that full AIM-120D + AIM-9X capability won't potentially be slated until 2017 or 2018 if a one year slip. Seems like a flawed plan imho, although one would hope decision makers have a good handle on what's actually required. When will full JDRADM's (if successful) capability be mature then, 2025?

This was always the plan. The legacy fighters got the priority for the 120D/9X, because they were the most vulnerable. The kinematics of a 120C7 from 50-60k feet, and M1.8 mitigate the need for early integration of longer ranged weapons, and the results of the 3 F-16s equipped with JHMCS/9X vs 1 F-22 with HUD/9M, are why the 9X wasn't as big of a priority. By the 2017/2018 timeframe, the D+/9X Block II will be the current models, and considerably more capable(still long before PAK FAs/J20s reach IOC).

Quote:

As far as 'the math being wrong' goes, one should actually expect continued surprises to the maturity and capabilities timeline of competing entry models around the world. To date, officials have been rather caught off guard and surprised, so there's no evidence to suggest that a mature increment 3.1-equivalent (at the least) capability of say, the PAKFA, won't be ready by around 2020.

Which Russian fighter's avionics caught us off guard, in its initial entry form?

I simply don't understand why anyone would still want the F-22. Robert Gates has faced tremendous pressure from the military industrial complex and their puppets in Congress to proceed with the production of this flawed fighter. Yet Gates still decided to cancel it. What does that tell you? My interpretation - the F-22's design flaws and maintenance nightmares are far worse than what the informed officials are willing to let on in public. In other words, the F-22 is a failed project. Why are the fan boys still waving Lockheed Martin's fraudulent sales brochure, and daydreaming about a restart of the assembly line? Are you suggesting that all those news reports on Raptor's problems are lies? The US government is already in the process of defaulting on its debts through massive inflation. Perhaps it's US turn to start stealing technological secrets from the Russians and the Chinese. They seem to have worked out a real thing, unlike the 180+ ultra-expensive pieces of junk that will probably never see a real combat mission.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

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