Forum: Program and politics

southernphantom wrote:

thestealthfighterguy wrote:

velocityvector wrote:

Respectfully offered. We've been clubbing baby harp seals for decades. The big animal sticks are our strategic and anti-strategic defensive systems as well as our surveillance. Italy lives under this umbrella nonchalantly. It would be swell to have the Italians acquire F-35 for interoperability. But not if this breaks their bank or they end up with diminished capability vice what they can afford or we, the US, can afford to comp them. Economies and contractor practices, as well as software development, are the primary challenges today. So big stick against whom with the Italian Job?

IMO, we (the US ) need to stop being a cop and the world knows we may not be the one saving their butts forever. Ever read about WWI? How about WWII? If you did you know after both of them everyone said this was the last war. Both times they were wrong. So many people think WWIII will never happen. They're wrong. It will come, and not the way people think. It's always a new type of war. The rest of the world knows this. Most of the US people have been told for over 20 years that the "Cold war" is over. They're wrong, it just changed. The new war is going to be over food, fuel, water, and freedom (aka people's right to live how they want). In this new war it will be more importmant to protect your home land than attack. Air power is the most important fighting force. No one has won a war without control of the sky in 100 years. If you need to make cuts it should not be to your airforce. If they own your skys they own you. The Italians know this. I know, I know many of them. They remember what blitzkrieg did. Ask the iraqi republican guard what they did when a pair of B-52's flaten the tank battalion on each side of them with one pass. you know what they did? They ran away from their tanks screaming, because there was nothing they could do but run or die. The rest of the world remembers what airpower can do, when will our people?

My Two Cents

TSFG

Your :2c; was well-received by this redneck Phanatic. Every time I hear about a squadron losing its Vipers or being deactivated, I have a mini-rage against BRAC and politically-motivated drawdowns. We have total superiority over all of the EU if that is necessary, but a world war (of the type that I agree is inevitable) would stretch our forces dangerously thin.

I know we have to cut back. Times are tuff. I just hope we cut the right fat. I think the Army should get the big cuts. We need the Navy for sea's, the Marines to attack and the Airforce for the sky's. The Army has become an occupation force. We can't pay for all of them. I think they will see a large part of the cuts. Nothing agenst the Army. It's just their time. We can't occupy so many country's anymore. Just the way it is. We need to let the rest of the world go to hell for a few years like we have our own country. It's time to save our self for once.

TSFG

P.S. I guess I'm a Hip-neck. Hippy mother+Redneck father= Hip-neck. I'm all for love and peace, but when like always that dosn't work...STOMP THEIR A$$ Exclamation

Edit to add...

Obama unveils defence cuts, vows US ‘military superiority’
http://www.france24.com/en/20120105-usa-obama-unveils-new-defence-strategy-budget-cuts-vows-military-superiority?ns_mchannel=SEM&ns_source=Google&ns_campaign=France%2024%20US_Americas&ns_linkname=USA%20-%20Military%20Budget_budget%20us%20army&ns_fee=0&gclid=CM3VtYz7u60CFasaQgodlAmTAA

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Interesting that Obama seems to be focusing on U.A.V.'s. Definitely a tool you want in your arsenal, but they're not the end all/be all, sometimes you need a pilot on the scene able to make decisions - not miles away looking through a soda straw cursing the data lag! Just my Two Cents

Glad that the Next Generation Bomber seems to be back in the works. Making it optionally manned seems like a good idea, and having it do I.S.R., recon, electronic jamming (the U.S.A.F. sorely needs a replacement for an EF-111A Raven) AND being able to bomb makes sense, if it can be kept affordable. We've already spent the R&D on the B-2 Spirit, F-22 Raptor, and are spending it on the F-35. With any luck the N.G.B. could be developed "off the shelf"? Fingers crossed.

FlightDreamz wrote:

Interesting that Obama seems to be focusing on U.A.V.'s. Definitely a tool you want in your arsenal, but they're not the end all/be all, sometimes you need a pilot on the scene able to make decisions - not miles away looking through a soda straw cursing the data lag! Just my Two Cents

Glad that the Next Generation Bomber seems to be back in the works. Making it optionally manned seems like a good idea, and having it do I.S.R., recon, electronic jamming (the U.S.A.F. sorely needs a replacement for an EF-111A Raven) AND being able to bomb makes sense, if it can be kept affordable. We've already spent the R&D on the B-2 Spirit, F-22 Raptor, and are spending it on the F-35. With any luck the N.G.B. could be developed "off the shelf"? Fingers crossed.

I wonder if the intent is still to pursue the Next Generation Bomber as a black program? I read something alluding to this a while back. If they remain true to the stated intnt of building the NGB using proven technologies to mitigate risk, then perhaps the program will be made transparent to the public, similar to what we see with the JSF program. It's not like they're going to be able to keep it's existence a secret.

I can see the appeal though of keeping out of the limelight and avoiding all the distractions that come with being in the public spotlight.

Last edited by popcorn on Jan 08, 2012 - 07:26 AM; edited 1 time in total

-DOUBLE POST-

FlightDreamz wrote:

Interesting that Obama seems to be focusing on U.A.V.'s...

FlightDreamz wrote:

Glad that the Next Generation Bomber seems to be back in the works.

Where do you see those specific items?

FlightDreamz wrote:

...if it can be kept affordable. We've already spent the R&D on the B-2 Spirit, F-22 Raptor, and are spending it on the F-35. With any luck the N.G.B. could be developed "off the shelf"? Fingers crossed.

In the general "military aircraft" forum here, I started a thread that hasn't gotten many responses, about what USAF is going to end up doing about bombers. My theory that I expressed there is that what will end up actually getting done is a modernization program for B-2s, possibly starting with new sensors & such to be installed in the ones that are already flying, but eventually including a new production run (to include the newer technology from the start) when the current ones get too old. The money that design/development & testing for a whole new plane (especially a bomber) costs will just not be allowed.

delvo wrote:

My theory that I expressed there is that what will end up actually getting done is a modernization program for B-2s, possibly starting with new sensors & such to be installed in the ones that are already flying, but eventually including a new production run (to include the newer technology from the start) when the current ones get too old. The money that design/development & testing for a whole new plane (especially a bomber) costs will just not be allowed.

While I think you may be right, that's a worrisome proposition, and it won't save money, only have the appearance of saving money to the kind of grandstanding morons who can win elections. The basic finalized design of the B-2 dates back to 1980, with some modifications to permit lower-altitude operations worked in before 1988. While upgrading the ones we have makes sense as long as they're going to be active combat aircraft, the basic design is already 30 years out of date in terms of capabilities, materials, and manufacturing efficiencies, and as it is, the B-2 is shoehorned into low-altitude conventional bombing roles the basic airframe wasn't designed for. We've learned a lot about stealth operations since designing it, and we can be more informed on what to put in and what not to put in, even aside from having found better, cheaper ways to do many of the things we should put in.

And on a modern plane, the electronic gadgets will cost more than the airframe. Raising the cost of every add-on subsystem by requiring it to fit into an existing legacy airframe (with all the restrictions of 2nd generation stealth design) will cost as much or more than developing a new airframe around the new gadgets. Sticking with a legacy design won't get the capabilities of a modern airframe, either. Nor will it do anything to maintain the knowledge base of how to design a new bomber. Sticking with the existing design also saves nothing in terms of manufacturing costs; there is no more B-2 assembly line, no more workers experienced in building them, just paper and computer files (how many of the basic manufacturing plans are even in CAD formats that can readily be opened today?). We'd have to re-build the entire assembly plant, same as for a new bomber, and even when we had an existing assembly line it was a VERY expensive plane to build. Look at how much cheaper the F-35 is supposed to be to build and maintain compared to the F-22, and that's not even a full three decades of improvements between those two airframes. The B-2 is an amazing plane as a plane, but a failure as a design, which is why we only built 21 of them. Plus design and testing of the new-build B-2s with upgraded whatever isn't going to be free, either, unless the upgrades are minimal. Overall, whatever pennies are saved in not designing a new airframe will be more than outweighed by the wastage of going with an old, and very expensive, one.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... %20Stealth

Who's not to say that there isn't already a 2018 Bomber/NGB demonstrator soaring in the night skies over Nevada at this very moment?
Nothing should surprise us anymore about the secret world of black programs.

the 2018 NGB will still be outlasted by the B-52 if history is anything to learn from.

hb_pencil wrote:

I guess you need to read more about the F-35 program.

m wrote:

What you are claiming here makes no sense. This is not only about jobs, you totally forget the impact on knowledge industry. Not only military, but for civil industry as well. For instance designing new production methods and production machines. In fact this is more important, keeping industry advanced, than jobs.

I am pretty well informed on the JSF program from an open source standpoint (and the jobs it creates it’s the only thing that is highly advertised). It creates thousands of US jobs, but from an Italian standpoint that’s what it’s going to be: the average estimate is 600 ITALIAN jobs. You should probably reconsider your standpoint of “what is good for the US is good for the world”.
Would a developed Country spend 15,000,000,000 EURs (that is not even the final price tag) to get an aircraft without full technology transfer? NO. If I pay 15,000,000,000 EURs I want ALL (or I will look at the next shop, maybe the one that belongs to my brothers).
This is why I say, the JSF program from an allied Country standpoint is nothing but a tribute to the USA economy. Needless, not ready, expensive, limited access… come on!
Now let’s see the FREMM frigates the Italian navy is getting. 10 Frigates for 600,000,000 EUR each. Do you know why the noise is far less on them? Because they are Italian and French jobs. European jobs.
Europe should just dump the F-35 program and focus on its industry instead of paying tributes to the USA.
We are at war. It’s an economic war. It’s modern total war. Time to update the military doctrines.

marco9 wrote:

hb_pencil wrote:

I guess you need to read more about the F-35 program.

m wrote:

What you are claiming here makes no sense. This is not only about jobs, you totally forget the impact on knowledge industry. Not only military, but for civil industry as well. For instance designing new production methods and production machines. In fact this is more important, keeping industry advanced, than jobs.

I am pretty well informed on the JSF program from an open source standpoint (and the jobs it creates it’s the only thing that is highly advertised). It creates thousands of US jobs, but from an Italian standpoint that’s what it’s going to be: the average estimate is 600 ITALIAN jobs. You should probably reconsider your standpoint of “what is good for the US is good for the world”.
Would a developed Country spend 15,000,000,000 EURs (that is not even the final price tag) to get an aircraft without full technology transfer? NO. If I pay 15,000,000,000 EURs I want ALL (or I will look at the next shop, maybe the one that belongs to my brothers).
This is why I say, the JSF program from an allied Country standpoint is nothing but a tribute to the USA economy. Needless, not ready, expensive, limited access… come on!
Now let’s see the FREMM frigates the Italian navy is getting. 10 Frigates for 600,000,000 EUR each. Do you know why the noise is far less on them? Because they are Italian and French jobs. European jobs.
Europe should just dump the F-35 program and focus on its industry instead of paying tributes to the USA.
We are at war. It’s an economic war. It’s modern total war. Time to update the military doctrines.

Level partners did invest very little. Invested by Italy only $1 billion in development and you want all! Ridiculous to expect this from the US.
You really think it would be different the other way around, in case a European project and the US investing a same low percentage?
The US did pay most of the money developing the F35. Suppose "Going Dutch" one could use for the F35 project?

You want the source code? You really think a source code of the Typhoon will be given to other countries as well?
Even Israel won’t get the source code of the F35. They tried this before with the Apache, but never got the source code as well.

Developing new aircraft has become a international thing for everyone. For example even a Rafale has US developments. Airbus planes are filled with US component, as well as US civilian planes do have European components.

As an example Fokker (Dutch) develops and delivers the cable booms for the F35. This also means developing new production methods and machines.
Keeping a industry advanced and competitive is much more important than a figure of jobs. Not only for the Dutch, for all levepartners as well involved with their specific industry.

Leaving the F35 project, as you suggest, is not that smart for Europe. Coming 10-15 years, or more, their will be no money available developing a new fighter jet.
Probably the gab will have become that wide, no European jets will ever be developed.
Joining the F35 project is probably the best thing Europe has done keeping their industry alive, as well as concerning knowledge industry.
Probably BAE will have got the best changes in Europe concerning their aircraft industry as a major contender concerning the F35.

Although a very small player in the aircraft industry the Dutch choose to go American (2002) in stead of European. They saw this as the only possibility to save what was left from Fokker, after the company got broke.
The European way, expected by the Dutch, would have mend suicide or killing the aviation divisions left, by European aviation industry.

In fact already before 2002 the Dutch went American by joining them. For some 14 years they are involved in production of components for the Apache AH 64, as well involved in the production of the Chinook.

Quote: Fokker Aerostructures and Boeing Rotorcraft Systems have reached an agreement to develop and produce the Forward Avionics Bays for the AH-64D Apache Block III helicopters
The Forward Avionics Bays (FABs), mounted on both sides of the Apache helicopters, form the housings for the aircraft’s avionics systems. The Block III FAB is based on a new concept which is lighter and incorporates maintainability improvements. The development activities have already started at the Fokker facility in Hoogeveen (Netherlands). During the development phase the company is working closely together with Boeing Rotorcraft Systems in Mesa. Delivery of the first hardware is scheduled for 2011. Fokker will deliver 43 sets during the planned low rate initial production (LRIP) phase. The total program has a potential of 800 sets. This program provides highly qualified work for 70 specialists at Fokker in Hoogeveen.

This order confirms Fokker’s position as specialist for complex, lightweight aerostructures. Fokker and Boeing have been working together for 14 years in the Apache program and Fokker has now produced almost 900 FAB sets for the Apache AH64D Longbow in Hoogeveen.
http://www.helihub.com/2010/07/30/fokke ... block-iii/

Concerning the Netherlands, may be different for other European countries, joining the US aircraft industry was the best choice they have made and in fact saved their aircraft industry (some 15,000 laborers in the NL aircraft industry).

Concerning Italy, you forget Italy will also build the Dutch F35’s in stead of the US.
What to think of maintenance, coming 40-50 years? Italy will profit much more than they will invest in the F35. This means also jobs coming 40-50 years

I began flying the F-4B-the engines put out a smoke trail that fellow Marine pilots did not appreciate because it made NVA AAA and SAM batteries very capable of tracking the strike package-the Aim-7 was a "water seeker"-

-I finished in the F-4S-the smokless engines, manuvering slats, AWG-10 look down shoot down -and all aspect Aim-9 and better Aim-7s was a HUGE T/M/S positive modernization trend-

The design feature of the F-35 is not only will basic airframe improvements occur BUT the DAS can be constantly modernized as the inevatable reactive enemy develops their aircraft and weapons--This is where the both the strategic and tactical payoff will occur-the "ipad" generation will make all this happen in ways not yet even thought about in developing training, tactics and "no platform" fights alone con-ops.

The Marines received their first F-4Bs in June 1962, with the "Black Knights" of VMFA-314 El Torao.

On 18 January 1992, the last Marine Corps Phantom, an F-4S in the Marine Corps Reserve, was retired by the "Cowboys" of VMFA-112.

The Phantom served with the air forces of many countries, including Australia, EgyptGermany, UK Greece, Iran (some Aces waiting to happen on this fleet) , Israel, Japan, Spain, South Korea and Turkey

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the info.. and your service, cheers.

easy wrote:

This is where the both the strategic and tactical payoff will occur-the "ipad" generation will make all this happen in ways not yet even thought about in developing training, tactics and "no platform" fights alone con-ops.

On a side note, (some of) the "iPad" generation use their personal iPads in the cockpit, although not across all commands. Hope is on the horizon: the NGA is developing charts and pubs for the iPad... The sooner the better in my view.

F16 pilot with I-pad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO9H3bwl4qo

Forum: Program and politics

Hit piece on the F-35 in the Italian Press