Forum: Program and politics

wrightwing wrote:

I base my judgements on the evidence at hand. [...] There simply is no precedent to go by, to speculate that Turkey wants to share technology with Russia/China, so that they can fight Israel.

Well now you have your analysis turned inside out. Your sentence should read, "There simply is no precedent to go by, to speculate that Turkey wants to share technology with Russia/China, so that they can defend themselves against Israel." (The original point was Turkey's strategic national interest in being able to defend themselves against Israeli F-35's.)

Now, once we get that turn inside right, you still have a text-book logical fallacy going on. "There simply is no precedent to go by, to speculate that Japan will attack Pearl Harbor," is what you are saying.

Do you see this?

Chad

F-16.net Sponsor

cxxtxx wrote:

Well now you have your analysis turned inside out. Your sentence should read, "There simply is no precedent to go by, to speculate that Turkey wants to share technology with Russia/China, so that they can defend themselves against Israel." (The original point was Turkey's strategic national interest in being able to defend themselves against Israeli F-35's.)

Now, once we get that turn inside right, you still have a text-book logical fallacy going on. "There simply is no precedent to go by, to speculate that Japan will attack Pearl Harbor," is what you are saying.

Do you see this?

Chad

You're making a large assumption, that Turkey's prime military focus is a conflict with Israel. Up until the relatively recent events over Gaza, Israel and Turkey conducted training, etc... together. The Turks and the Greeks have had far more stressful relations, and they've managed to avoid conflict.
If you want to convince any of us, that your point of view is particularly valid, then you're going to need to do a lot better in building your case.

cxxtxx wrote:

Conan wrote:

I know man! Look at the Netherlands they've only ordered two aircraft as well and the UK has only ordered 3 and Australia a slightly more impressive 14, but still low. Man the US is SO stupid...

Same defective thinking as the post above--merging a logical fallacy with a cognitive distortion.

A post in red type that smacks of desperation, munny keeps throwing his poop...is this a fanboy sewing circle or what??

Chad

Yeah? You are... Cognitive distortion eh? The definition of which is exaggerated and illogical thoughts. So who here has jumped to the conclusion that an order for 2 aircraft is clearly related to a plan to steal F-35 technology and who here thinks this is a slight over-reaction? Seeing as though you apparently enjoy semi-psychological discussion, then my friend, it is apparent you are suffering from associative thinking (mistaking an ideal connection with a real one...)

For goodness sakes, is this what this board has descended to? That a fruitcake like this can come in, Wiki a few pyschological sounding terms and then accuse everyone else of suffering from them based on a handful of words being written? What a clinical approach. Clearly sir, the medical arts are well known to you...

A country orders an initial 2 aircraft, with a stated plan to order up to 100 as stated in your OWN damn link and all of a sudden everyone else is crazy?

Seeing as though you apparently enjoy "big" sounding pseudo-science based words and phrases, here's a few for you:

Drug induced psychosis.

Clearly you are subject to this at present if you believe (and are not just trolling) the rubbish you've just written.

wrightwing wrote:

You're making a large assumption, that Turkey's prime military focus is a conflict with Israel.

Well now you are in the middle of a cognitive distortion. I never said, "Turkey's prime military focus is a conflict with Israel." I said national security principles dictate that Turkey must act in a certain manner. They have no choice, you can't hold it against them.

wrightwing wrote:

If you want to convince any of us, that your point of view is particularly valid, then you're going to need to do a lot better in building your case.

In national security matters specific fact patterns are ignored in lieu of national security principles. Why? Because it is impossible to always know "the facts." You can never wait for "the facts" to become the facts. Therefore, nations develop security principles, and the most basic principle is parity. In this case, one would suspect that Turkey's ONLY OPTION is to do what I am suggesting.

Unless the United States assures operational F-35 parity between Turkey and Israel, and it must be a parity that Turkey actually believes, they will act in their national interests which is to achieve parity by developing counter-measures to Israeli F-35's. This is very simple stuff.

Chad

>>What do they do? They allow the Russians and the highest bidder between China and India to examine the technology with the understanding that Turkey receives the cost-free benefits of the counter-measure research--and the instant the Russians get ahold of it, it will be sold to the Russian mafia and then everybody on the planet will have it. And what a poker chip to have with China and India! Turkey can spend that chip many different ways >>

Is this from the latest John Le Carre novel ? ..Hell of a scenario ..

Last edited by cxxtxx on Jan 06, 2012 - 04:31 PM; edited 1 time in total

Conan wrote:

Drug induced psychosis. Clearly you are subject to this at present if you believe (and are not just trolling) the rubbish you've just written.

Well this is more incoherent monkey poop.

Again, parity is a fundamental national security principle and in this case, one would suspect that Turkey's ONLY OPTION is to do what I am suggesting.

Unless the United States assures operational F-35 parity between Turkey and Israel, and it must be a parity that Turkey actually believes, they will act in their national interests which is to achieve parity by developing counter-measures to Israeli F-35's. This is very, very simple stuff.

Chad

Dear God, this is hilarious.

On another note, am I the only person who remembers that Israel and Turkey have/had some degree of military-industrial cooperation?? Elta built a lot of the new components on Turkey's Terminators.

southernphantom wrote:

Dear God, this is hilarious. On another note, am I the only person who remembers that Israel and Turkey have military-industrial cooperation??

Well now we have another logical fallacy in your thinking. You are basically saying, "On another note, am I the only person who remembers that Germany and the USSR had military-industrial cooperation in 1940??

Do you see how this brand of logical fallacy always leads to thinking failure?

Chad

cxxtxx wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

You're making a large assumption, that Turkey's prime military focus is a conflict with Israel.

Well now you are in the middle of a cognitive distortion. I never said, "Turkey's prime military focus is a conflict with Israel." I said national security principles dictate that Turkey must act in a certain manner. They have no choice, you can't hold it against them.

wrightwing wrote:

If you want to convince any of us, that your point of view is particularly valid, then you're going to need to do a lot better in building your case.

In national security matters specific fact patterns are ignored in lieu of national security principles. Why? Because it is impossible to always know "the facts." You can never wait for "the facts" to become the facts. Therefore, nations develop security principles, and the most basic principle is parity. In this case, one would suspect that Turkey's ONLY OPTION is to do what I am suggesting.

Unless the United States assures operational F-35 parity between Turkey and Israel, and it must be a parity that Turkey actually believes, they will act in their national interests which is to achieve parity by developing counter-measures to Israeli F-35's. This is very simple stuff.

Chad

So the ONLY logical conclusion is that Turkey MUST want to give Russia/China the F-35's secrets? That's quite a leap you're making.

cxxtxx wrote:

Well this is more incoherent monkey poop.

It unlike yourself at present is perfectly coherent. I suggest sir you take a few deep breaths, a bex or 2 perhaps, have a lie down and remove the tinfoil hat.

Quote:

Again, parity is a fundamental national security principle and in this case, one would suspect that Turkey's ONLY OPTION is to do what I am suggesting.

Unless the United States assures operational F-35 parity between Turkey and Israel, and it must be a parity that Turkey actually believes, they will act in their national interests which is to achieve parity by developing counter-measures to Israeli F-35's. This is very, very simple stuff.

Chad

Or Turkey and Israel can continue to do what it is that they are doing today and that is buying the same basic fighter (as they have done previously with F-16) and operate it according to their own TTP's with perhaps their own weapon systems as an element of their overall force capability?

On second thoughts, nah it is highly unlikely they are doing this. They're far more likely to be selling those 2 F-35's to a guy in a secret Volcano lair, surrounded by liquid hot magma and we're all crazy for thinking otherwise...

I wonder what this guy's going to do with his 2 brand new, ex-TUAF F-35's, besides take over the world?

Conan wrote:

cxxtxx wrote:

What better way to let Iran, Russia, China and India, (not to mention Islamic extremist and Central-Asian/Russian mafia arms dealers) to see all that wonderful 5th-generation technology than to sell TWO (2) examples to Turkey. Why bother buying, count 'em 1, 2, examples if the plan is not to sell access to anyone who wants to look at them?

My God. Really? You get the impression that LM would sell the F-35 to al-Qaeda if that would help keep the program alive.

(I'm really interested in the fanboy replies that I'm going to get for this. Really interested.)

Chad

I know man! Look at the Netherlands they've only ordered two aircraft as well and the UK has only ordered 3 and Australia a slightly more impressive 14, but still low. Man the US is SO stupid...

Clearly all these countries are buying minimum numbers so they can steal the technology. That is the ONLY possible conclusion...

Or maybe, these are INITIAL orders with larger orders to follow? That couldn't be the case could it? I mean it's not as if each of the partner nations has been planning to acquire JSF's in this fashion since 2002 or earlier, is it?

Suppose cxxtxx does not understand, only three F35B’s (UK) and two F35A’s (Netherlands) concerns the IOT&E phase of the F35.

As whitewing wrote: The British could potentially be planning to re-colonize the USA. Doh

The Dutch possibly planning to get back New York? Doh

m wrote:

I know man! Look at the Netherlands they've only ordered two aircraft as well and the UK has only ordered 3 and Australia a slightly more impressive 14, but still low. Man the US is SO stupid...

Clearly all these countries are buying minimum numbers so they can steal the technology. That is the ONLY possible conclusion...

Suppose cxxtxx does not understand, only three F35B’s (UK) and two F35A’s (Netherlands) concerns the IOT&E phase of the F35.

As whitewing wrote: The British could potentially be planning to re-colonize the USA.

The Dutch possibly planning to get back New York?

There are so many logical fallacies in this mess. At least three (3) of them have already been addressed. Essentially this is what you are saying, "Look at the Netherlands they've only ordered two hamburgers and the UK has only ordered 3 hamburgers and Australia has ordered 14 hamburgers, so now I can draw a conclusion about how many hamburgers Turkey is ordering. Do you see how the wires will never connect when using a logical fallacy like this?

What m and Conan do not understand is: Sarcasm is the white flag of a defeated mind that is waved back and forth in the hope that nobody will notice the surrender.

I never said, "That is the ONLY possible conclusion..." I said, "...nations develop security principles, and the most basic principle is parity. In this case, one would suspect that Turkey's ONLY OPTION is to do what I am suggesting. Unless the United States assures operational F-35 parity between Turkey and Israel, and it must be a parity that Turkey actually believes, they will act in their national interests which is to achieve parity by developing counter-measures to Israeli F-35's."

Do you see the difference between, "That is the ONLY possible conclusion" and "Turkey's ONLY OPTION" in this context?

Chad

If he really knew anything about Turkey's total participation in the program, and how much infrastructure is already in the planning there to support the MANY F35's they are planning to buy, he would see how ridiculous his previous posts are. TROLLING....

cxxtxx wrote:

There are so many logical fallacies in this mess. At least three (3) of them have already been addressed. Essentially this is what you are saying, "Look at the Netherlands they've only ordered two hamburgers and the UK has only ordered 3 hamburgers and Australia has ordered 14 hamburgers, so now I can draw a conclusion about how many hamburgers Turkey is ordering. Do you see how the wires will never connect when using a logical fallacy like this?

What m and Conan do not understand is: Sarcasm is the white flag of a defeated mind that is waved back and forth in the hope that nobody will notice the surrender.

I never said, "That is the ONLY possible conclusion..." I said, "...nations develop security principles, and the most basic principle is parity. In this case, one would suspect that Turkey's ONLY OPTION is to do what I am suggesting. Unless the United States assures operational F-35 parity between Turkey and Israel, and it must be a parity that Turkey actually believes, they will act in their national interests which is to achieve parity by developing counter-measures to Israeli F-35's."

Do you see the difference between, "That is the ONLY possible conclusion" and "Turkey's ONLY OPTION" in this context?

Chad

If it's so obvious that Turkey alone is buying 2 F-35s, to give up the technology, why is it that you're the only one that it's obvious to? If that were the plan, why would they be planning this scheme with pre-IOC aircraft, rather than with Block III or later software? Hmmmmm. Ponder that one.

Forum: Program and politics

Turkey to buy two Lockheed F-35 jets