Forum: Program and politics

PhillyGuy wrote:

The South China sea nations and those of the Indian ocean and PAC RIM areas have much more than dollar amounts and availability to think about. Which purchase makes a bigger statement, that Vietnam bought F-16s from the US, or Rafales from France? Hypothetically speaking.

PhillyGuy -Vietnam People's Air Force operates four 'Su-30MK2s' as of January 2010!

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PhillyGuy wrote:

hcobb wrote:

The market is splitting into two parts:

High end customers who can afford and demand 5th gen fighters

and

Low end customers who beg for refab used 4th gen fighters.

Which of those two markets do the Eurocanards sell into?

Umm, well, none really. The hottest market right now is in the middle east, which has capital and demand, and long standing ties with the US industry, forged through war and sealed meeting rooms. They want the latest, and without much objection from Israel or instability worries, the closer Iran gets to a nuclear weapon, the more willing and eager the Arabs will be to seek continual modernization of their air defense forces into the next logical progression. Saudi Arabia is in discussion with Pakistan to buy nuclear weapons if and when the need for MAD arises. So money is not an issue over survival. It makes sense to buy American, we're there and will be the first ones on the scene, interoperability is crucial with limited resourced and the kind of realities a conflict there would incur.

No additional Typhoons for Saudi Arabia. It looks like they are buying 84 new F-15s and upgrading another 70.

Good news for Boeing. Not such good new for EF.

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-us-sel ... 38789.html

Thumper3181 wrote:

No additional Typhoons for Saudi Arabia. It looks like they are buying 84 new F-15s and upgrading another 70.

Good news for Boeing. Not such good new for EF.

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-us-sel ... 38789.html

Maybe, maybe not. I didn't see any mention that SA will no longer pursue additional EFs.. I think they were considering 24 more aircraft.. money doesn't seem to be an issue with those guys.

EF might also get lucky and pick up an order from the UAE. There might be some additional Block 60 Viper orders in it for LM as well. Nice to have money..

hcobb wrote:

And what do you get the secrets to building exactly?

Why have the Japanese stopped F-2 production, whatever happened to the AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo, etc?

Taking the time to make a copy of something that has already fallen behind does what for you exactly?

Sounds like a great way to spend money without actually defending your country.

Now building commercial aircraft for export is a great reason to tie into the Boeing supply chain.

Yes hcobb, these are good points you make for sure. For Japan, they are vexed by an internal supplier system that in too many ways reflects the inefficiencies of WWII-- driving costs up for no viable reason. For Taiwan the hot-cold cooperation from the US/US contractors very much confused their long term planning (license restrictions for engines, systems etc). So the Taiwan example you cite is the opposite example of technology transfer if you see what I mean. It is nearly certain even with extravagant external assistance you would not produce the next F-16 in your initial efforts at developing your own indigenous fighter. But let’s say that your effort was supported by a stable government that expected your fledgling industry's initial efforts would not produce a world winner, but instead expected the result to be an applied learning effort and stepping stone. This appears to be working for China who cloned for decades before making their first initial designs. and may yet work for India and possibly Brazil? Ignoring the HF-24 for the moment!

Considering that Saudi Arabia is part of the Asian subset of nations, how many people here are still complaining about the F-15 line still being open? More money, more work, and more experienced American areospace engineers, mechanics, and line workers keep their jobs, and their skills.

Maybe it should have went to Eurofighter, or Rafael, or the Gripen.

No country is big enough to develop a 5th generation jet fighter.

Both the United States and Russia have sought foreign assistance in their programs. (The United States in order to have a big enough market for their software defined aircraft and Russia to have somebody to write the software for them.)

So which country is it, that is so much "bigger in aerospace" than the United States and Russia, that it can go it alone?

And yes, the F-22 is NOT yet a 5th generation fighter. It's a 4.X something that is waiting for magic parts from the Joint Strike Fighter to complete it.

You sure you're hcobb and not corncobb?

I have faith in the F-35, but still get nervous when news pops up about these 2 fighters= J-20 and T-50. Mostly becuase of the hack at LM by (most likely the chinese) and put that intel into their designs.. Doh

hcobb wrote:

No country is big enough to develop a 5th generation jet fighter.

Both the United States and Russia have sought foreign assistance in their programs. (The United States in order to have a big enough market for their software defined aircraft and Russia to have somebody to write the software for them.)

What ever are you babbling about? F-22 got stunted because of the end of the cold war. The Us is going to buy well over 2000 F-35s over the next 30 years. The US has always sought to export its weapons 5th gen or not. Tell me again how many F-16s where sold to non US customers?

There are lots of reasons to do so. Reducing unit cost is one of them but it is also done for ease of operational integration with allies and to influence foreign policy. F-35 would be built whether there are 5000 foreign orders or not.

What you could have said was due to the end of the cold war the US decided not to afford fully developing two 5th gen platforms.

vilters wrote:

The Griphen? Who buys paper airplanes?? There is no Griphen N/G flying.

PS, I am European, but I have my eyes open.

Switzerland is ordering Gripen NG. Sweden too. More will come. And new versions will come in order to keep it competetive, not just E/F in the short term but also G/H down the road.

Your eyes might be open but you desperately need to see an optician.

The F-22 was built for a 120 degree fight and the F-35 is being built for a 360 degree fight.

Once the F-22 has the helmet mounted display and the a2a datastream from the AN/AAR-56 to feed into this then the Raptor pilots will be able ti engage in the HOBS fight. These parts shall come from the F-35 program, along with a new core processor and the software to run it.

hcobb wrote:

The F-22 was built for a 120 degree fight and the F-35 is being built for a 360 degree fight.

Once the F-22 has the helmet mounted display and the a2a datastream from the AN/AAR-56 to feed into this then the Raptor pilots will be able ti engage in the HOBS fight. These parts shall come from the F-35 program, along with a new core processor and the software to run it.

What does this have to do about this topic?

On Topic

I expected Europe to lose influence in Asia. Their "next-gen aircraft" are interim solutions at best and with 5th generation aircraft taking off I'm afraid it is only a matter of time before European contractors close up shop.

Vipernice wrote:

vilters wrote:

The Griphen? Who buys paper airplanes?? There is no Griphen N/G flying.

PS, I am European, but I have my eyes open.

Switzerland is ordering Gripen NG. Sweden too. More will come. And new versions will come in order to keep it competetive, not just E/F in the short term but also G/H down the road.

Your eyes might be open but you desperately need to see an optician.

Wouldn’t count on that for sure. An intension to order is not a deal. Nothing is sure yet, especially
not concerning Switzerland and their referenda. Don’t forget also the Swiss Airforce did want another jet.

Seems the future of the NG depends on the decision of the Swiss. May be Brazil, but seems the F18 has got some change, as well as the Rafale still has got a chance.
When they don’t order the Gripen the production lines have got to be closed.

Eyes open, an optician? Competitive? Hmm .. the impression my Belgian neighbour has got his eyes wide open

The Dutch and the Norwegians did not see the NG as an improvement concerning the F16.
Even the Swiss, who possibly will order the jet: “The purchase of Gripen might not mean that we get the best fighter plane in Europe. But we'll have a plane that meets our expectations – and we haven't planned to break any world records in this area,” Mauer said at the press conference”

Surprisingly the Swiss ranked the Rafale as number one, as well as the Dutch (F35 and Rafale, first competition).

Yep, Sweden will order the E/F, but only when there is an order by another country.
The Greens in Sweden does not want the E/F ... too expensive. The Swedish Airforce does not want another jet before 2025 as well.

The Swedish Airforce is in bad weather and will be reduced to 60-80 jets. Although already in 2008 was mentioned, probably 60.

Quote: Having placed orders for 204 Gripens in the 1990s, the Swedish Air Force, in the face of budgetary cuts, was reduced to 100 at the end of 2007. The latest economic review by the Armed Forces Command suggests the Air Force can afford to operate a maximum of 60 Gripens.

The total planned fleet downsizing would leave the Air Force with 144 surplus multirole JAS Gripens, which were acquired from Saab at an average cost of $60 million.

"The $12 billion JAS Gripen program has been a costly experience for Sweden, especially as a large share of this cost was spent on planes that may never be used. This is why the government, Saab and the SAF are working on finding the best economic solution they can, and what we may see is a surplus sale with the SAF's core fleet comprising of no more than 60 upgraded JAS 39 C/D type fighters," the MoD insider said.

Of the 144 so-called "surplus" 39A, 39B, 39C and 39D Gripens, 28 are operating under lease agreements reached with air forces in the Czech Republic and Hungary. Both agreements come with an option to purchase once the lease terms expire in 2015-16.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3637171

Quote: “And new versions will come in order to keep it competitive”

How? An economical crisis and defence cuts.
Several years a third of the defense budget (± $5 billion) was needed for the Gripen project, plus some $600 million upgrading to C/D standard. They surely can not afford this that much long with the NG, in case no -/or very limited orders. As Kemp (Saab) already in 2008 said, when no orders it’s done.

Ever thought about how expensive these Gripens have become for the Swedish Airforce with all that many Gripens in stock, almost brand new, for a second hand market. Not to mention including development costs per jet.

I do think my neighbour is right about Europe. Dassault aready said the Rafale production line will be closed when no orders. Saab is too small to survive as well.
EADS may be has got some change in India, but not really saves the production line. India wants to produce most of the jets themselves.
May be EADS has a got change to survive, but there is no money in Europe at the moment to develop a new jet.

What a load of pathetic rubbish Very Happy

Sorry buddy but the Gripen aint going away. Neither will the Rafale.

Personally I think the Gripen is a nice weapon system.

But? Sweden is still suffering from its "overbuy" to support its industry.
Same thing happened in Belgium when we bought way to many F-16's, also to support our own industry.

Now this same industry want us to buy yet another version?

Some other eyes are opening and saying ; "Hey, you got us once, but . . . ."

Same thing happened in france.
Mirage 3, OK bought in mass
Mirage F-1 too fast , too soon, just for F-16 competition, that it lost BTW. But, OK, cheap, so we will bye some.
Mirage 2000, in a zillion versions to get it sold.
Mirage 4000, that was never bought.
Rafale, initially a disaster, but OK survived, after another zillion changes.

Hey, industry?
Money is rare in Europe right now.
You can built and offer whatever you want, we can not bye at your proposed unit prices.
We can only bye mass produced planes, something that is Economically and Politically impossible in our devided Europe.

Forum: Program and politics

Europe loses out in Asian arms market