Forum: General F-35 Forum

AF-6/7 are production-model jets, but flight in ED AFB.
so AF-6/7's flights are SDD flights or production-model flighhts?

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Until the SDD-phase is completed - estimated now to be end of 2017 or possibly 2018 - the Production model jets will be what's called 'concurrency' jets. Simply, they are block III-capable Production models and will eventually be block III-mature once receiving appropriate updates and retrofits as need be; but they will be SDD-immature Production series jets undergoing simultaneous development and design testing (eg for durability). Hence the recent term 'concurrency' which you might see in print.

Once the SDD-phase is complete and all updates and retrofits have been achieved accordingly, then all said LRIP production units will be declared as being 'mature' and as such will qualify these jets for block III IOC capability. The plan was and I believe still is to wait for this "SDD phase" period to be completed before starting 'FRP' full rate production.

geogen wrote:

Until the SDD-phase is completed - estimated now to be end of 2017 or possibly 2018 - the Production model jets will be what's called 'concurrency' jets. Simply, they are block III-capable Production models and will eventually be block III-mature once receiving appropriate updates and retrofits as need be; but they will be SDD-immature Production series jets undergoing simultaneous development and design testing (eg for durability). Hence the recent term 'concurrency' which you might see in print.

Once the SDD-phase is complete and all updates and retrofits have been achieved accordingly, then all said LRIP production units will be declared as being 'mature' and as such will qualify these jets for block III IOC capability. The plan was and I believe still is to wait for this "SDD phase" period to be completed before starting 'FRP' full rate production.

Geo, if you don't know, don't make stuff up. The only part you got right is the last sentence.

Nothing is being made up, quick, it's the latest publicly released info. If there is non-public info on SDD related schedules and FRP schedules, etc then so be it but then it would be irrelevant to this thread anyway. No? Respects-

geogen wrote:

Nothing is being made up, quick, it's the latest publicly released info. If there is non-public info on SDD related schedules and FRP schedules, etc then so be it but then it would be irrelevant to this thread anyway. No? Respects-

The USAF acknowledged earlier this week that F-35A IOC will probably be in 2018, so you were generous in your remarks about SDD. It's tiresome that the usual suspects go negative when facts that they do not wish to believe are posted.

AF-6 and 7 are LRIP-1 jets. LRIP is Low Rate Initial Production -- they are not called concurrency jets. In acquisition programs. concurrency is the overlap of development and production -- it is not unique to F-35 nor to aerospace programs. AF-6 and 7 have been flying maturity flights as part of SDD. Maturity can be used in a variety of contexts, but in the current context this is about accumulating flight hours and demonstrating system reliability in routine use such that a flight clearance can be issued for non-DT pilots to fly jets that don't have a thousand pounds of instrumentation and a van full of flight test engineers monitoring the data real time. LRIP-1 jets are not Block 3 capable. Durability testing is ground testing done with test articles built specifically for that testing -- they do not fly, and thus AF-6 and 7 are not engaged in durability testing.

@Geo: You are mixing up your SDD, ITO&E, and IOC timelines. The timeline for the F-35A IOC is drifting anywhere from 2016 to 2018, primarily due to the USAF's indecision on whether IOC will run concurrently or after ITO&E. SDD however, has been slated to end in the 2015 timeframe.

@Quicksilver: What did you mean about LRIP1 not being "Blk3 capable"? As they have all the major hardware (radar, EOTS, EODAS, ESM, etc) and money has already been set aside to upgrade them fully to Blk3, I fail to see an upgrade problem. They are definitely not going to fall into the same trap as the early F-22 did vs the latest Blk35 F-22s.

To qwe and quicksilver:

I must admit that was perhaps my most grossly misstated and unrelated responses to a headliner. My apologies. Looking back scratching my head over how badly I missed that. I obviously didn't read the actual post in close detail and for apparent personal reasons of 'propagating' and opinion in support of my own views, must have read it to be a topic more on LRIP 6 and LRIP 7 aircraft in relation to the whole SDD phase and production concurrency issue in general. Looking back in context, it was an intent to merely flesh out the conversation on that scope (completely missing the topic). I will absolutely yield to Quick silver on his points in regards to exact AF-# articles involved with SDD phase. I concur in his clarification in general on this details.

FWIW, I'd further want to rephrase what I described as current LRIP jets being "called" 'concurrency jets'; to being "referred" to as 'concurrency jets'. Of course, there is no official terminology or description for the F-35 in particular being singled out as called "F-35 concurrency jets" as such, it is merely the general reference for the complicating problem being experienced on a fairly notable scale. (for which a knowledgeable qwe is surely aware of and thus shouldn't have even directed the point to him).

With respect to the greater issue of LRIP Production models as they relate to SDD, they are indirectly involved in respect to being part of the ever evolving manufacturing learning curve of such LRIP 'lesson jets' and in building manufacturing line efficiencies. In this case, the manufacturing line itself is arguably part of the SDD process as being a critical part of Program 'maturity' itself. I'm not sure however if you were disagreeing to the claim about LRIP production jets needing to undergo updates, retrofits and fixes upon 'completion' of SDD-phase, as a prerequisite to be classified as a block III-mature capable aircraft?

To Spud: I'll concede to the latest official estimate for SDD completion around 2015 (with ITO&E in 2017-2018) given the last restructuring. I was working under the premise of a further 30 month type delay (not an official estimate) with respect to SDD, which nonetheless could potentially still be case as anything is open to further estimate revisions. But Roger, I'll accept the current official SDD estimate for now.

SpudmanWP wrote:

@Geo: You are mixing up your SDD, ITO&E, and IOC timelines. The timeline for the F-35A IOC is drifting anywhere from 2016 to 2018, primarily due to the USAF's indecision on whether IOC will run concurrently or after ITO&E. SDD however, has been slated to end in the 2015 timeframe.

@Quicksilver: What did you mean about LRIP1 not being "Blk3 capable"? As they have all the major hardware (radar, EOTS, EODAS, ESM, etc) and money has already been set aside to upgrade them fully to Blk3, I fail to see an upgrade problem. They are definitely not going to fall into the same trap as the early F-22 did vs the latest Blk35 F-22s.

Actually, SDD will run well beyond 2015 -- should be plenty of public references for that. Blk 3 is not flying yet.

The latest news of the SDD has it ending in 2015. I know Blk3 is not flying yet, my point was that the hardware needed to run the Blk3 software (when it arrives) is already in the Blk1 jets, hence they are capable of Blk3 with little or no new hardware.

the simple truth is we don't the have time with the limited a/c we had and LM not wanting to do ANY MS testing at PAX. So, 6,7 and two B's to come soon to the MS Center of Excellance !!!!!!!

USAF To Extend F-16s To Cover F-35 Delays Nov 8, 2011 By Graham Warwick

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... dline=USAF To Extend F-16s To Cover F-35 Delays"

...Initial operational capability (IOC) of the Air Force’s F-35A variant was planned for 2018 but has slipped by about two years, Carlisle said.

The new IOC date will be determined once an updated F-35 integrated master schedule is completed. This is expected “fairly shortly,” Carlisle said. Built on a technical baseline review that extended JSF development by two years, the new schedule will detail how the F-35 will be fielded..."

spazsinbad wrote:

...Initial operational capability (IOC) of the Air Force’s F-35A variant was planned for [b]2018 but has slipped by about two years, Carlisle said.

The new IOC date will be determined once an updated F-35 integrated master schedule is completed. This is expected “fairly shortly,” Carlisle said."

I think there is a typo in the article : 2018 should be 2016, making the new IOC 2018.

Fair enuf.

Fresh delays in F-35 program will test aging CF-18 fleet: expert By Lee Berthiaume, Postmedia News Nov 8, 2011

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/ ... story.html

"...On Nov. 2, U.S. Maj.-Gen. Jay Lindell told members of the congressional subcommittee on tactical air and land forces on that the U.S. Air Force had expected the F-35 to be ready for initial deployment in 2016.

However, restructuring in the $66-billion program, which is already five years behind schedule, may push things back to 2018, he said...."

Forum: General F-35 Forum

AF-6/7's flights are SDD flights?