Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

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I would say Typhoon against Super Hornet...Which would win?

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Who has the best salesmen? In a tech vs tech fight it would be close. This is with "know" stats. I'd like to hope the new AESA in the Rhino in better than the Euro's CAPTOR. I've heard number all over the board on RCS for both. In kinetics I'm sad to say I think the Euro has the win. On that note...I don't know but I'd hope the Rhino. I'd like to think our pilots are the best too. TSFG

Best salesman? Last time I checked, Boeing and Lockheed Martin didn't do that well during the Indian MMRCA competition. Are Japan looking into buying the "best" pilots, too? Ignore that last part.

There has been a lot of reports stating that the Captor-M of the Typhoon has been on par, if not better, than the Super Hornet's AESA, I'll leave that up to some to decide otherwise. The Captor-M has already shown itself to be quite formidable during training exercises and has earned a great deal of respect from many other Air Forces. The IAF were particularly "very impressed" with the radar.

However, the Captor-M isn't likely to be included on the Typhoon if Japan selects this aircraft. They would recieve the Captor-E with it's array fitted to a 'Repositioner' giving it a 220~degree field-of-regard. Far more than the Super Hornet's 'fixed' AESA.

Kinetics? The Typhoon is very much the more superior aircraft in this area. And it must be pointed out that Japan's F-X requirements is primary for an air superiority fighter, giving the advantage to the Typhoon.

I think it may be fair to give the F-35 a mention here; and well, at this point in time it is high risk for Japan. And for the F-X requirement its not suited IMO. On top of that, Japanese politicions have seemed to lost a lot of faith in the F-35 at the current moment. However, thats not to say it's not suited to their needs in other roles and in the future.

The better overall choice? Typhoon has it in my book.

But, this being Japan. Don't be surprised if they go US and don't think that if they do, it's because it is the "superior" fighter. That being said, the Typhoon has a very strong chance in Japan.

Typhoon with assembly in Japan and an option to manufacture nose to tail a further hundred airframes might be worthwhile. Do something unique with it like they did the F-2A. Maybe go twin tails, only the tails moved out to the wings. Indigenous missiles and IRST. Use the M61A cannon. Opt for indigenous engines if you manufacture.

F-X is for only 42, not 100.

Typhoon is there to get a lower price on what they really want which is the F-35. Remember the Japs wanted the F-222 oh so badly but couldn't get it and the F-35 is the next best thing, infact it's better in all respects to the F-22 bar its speed and agility. Typhoons extreme operating cost would soon put the JASDF in finacial difficulty too. The F-35's a 'no-brainer'.

I'd contemplate Typhoon to replace the F-4 as a realistic option given a more flexible intercept/air superiority capacity and perhaps delay the F-35 option to instead procure a mature, more capable, more reliable, block IV variant (and later block V) as a replacement for the venerable F-15J and F-2 fleet.. Just add indigenous VLO UCAV robots by the early 2020s. Furthermore, being an FMS customer, the delay would allow Japan to better study future requirements and thus design and include indigenous components to be incorporated on the F-35, per modified JASDF procurement plan? Competitive participation in the sub assembly supply chain could still be offered in the meanwhile, with later final assembly occurring in country per proposals? 2 cents.

p.s., it could free up Boeing Super Hornet slots for the USMC for one. Thumb

geogen wrote:

I'd contemplate Typhoon to replace the F-4 as a realistic option given a more flexible intercept/air superiority capacity and perhaps delay the F-35 option to instead procure a mature, more capable, more reliable, block IV variant

Why though? Afterall the BlockIII alone does more than the Typhoon can and its systems are wrapped in an airframe that is actually survivable in a nasty IADS environment, unlike that of the Typhoon. And how is a later block more "reliable"?

The Typhoon is not just there to "get a lower price" on the F-35, (I remember many supporters of the F-16 & F/A-18IN on other forums saying the same thing about the Indian's MMRCA...Oops) otherwise Eurofighter GmbH/BAE Systems would have done the same in Japan as they did in Australia, Norway etc i.e. not bother proposing their bid. And how could you get a "lower price"on something that Japan or anyone else isn't 100% sure of the "real" price anyway? No offence to the F-35, but it's too high risk at the moment for Japan to purchase for their F-X requirements. It's also a bit naive to think the Typhoon has "extreme operating costs" when we don't even know what the same would be for the F-35. Smart thinkng...

The Typhoon proposed to Japan will be the latest variant, Tranche 3. And its not just the aircraft Japan wants, its ToT, source codes, industrial benefits so on and so on etc. It puts the Typhoon at an advantage in these areas.

I can't claim that a Typhoon isn't a better plane than a Big Bug, but I doubt that it's enough better to justify the almost-two-thirds higher price.

RAF seems to have payed ~£38m flyaway price for Tranche 2 planes. That's $59m, at current exchange ratios.
Tranche 3 is anyone's guess, though...

Cola, have sources for that ~£38m price?

7:

The EF-2000's leg up in the MMRCA competition was that India is looking to prove that it can get by without the US or Russia while establishing industrial relationships with Europe. Japan already has its own high-end industrial base and is firmly attached to the US for its own defense. Interoperability will be more important to them than a nationalistic ego-trip. There's also the slight possibility that the Japanese might be looking for something to fly off of their Hyuga class ships, especially in light of certain Chinese developments. I think the F-35 has a lock on this one, but we'll see.

No official sources.
Jon Lake said, that was the lowest price he saw reported on RAF's EFs T2.
Not sure which Block and capability, though...

Cola, IIRC a Typhoon Tranche 3 is somewhere in the region of £120 million with enhanced electronic warfare sensors (Captor-E, further enhanced DASS etc), enhanced communication systems including production and development costs.

1st503rdsgt, its quite a lot more than India wanting to prove it can get by without the US and Russia. During the trials before the shortlisted aircraft were announced, there were techincal reasons why the F-16, F/A-18 and other two didn't make it, simply put - they weren't as good as the two that did make it through. But indeed is true that India want to establish industrial relationships with Europe. Like wise for Europe in India. EADS and BAE Systems especially want to establish themselves in India.

Like wise for Japan too. The Japanese might want something to fly off their Hyuga Class ships but thats a different story and a different competition, its not a requirement for the F-X fighter.

True, they have their own high-end industrial base and are firmly attached to the US. However, recent reports seem to suggest that Japan are keen to move away from relying on the US and look elsewhere, European. They also have seemed to lost faith in the F-35 for the time being. Another recent report quoted a US Navy Commander and was pressed to say whether the Americans would best the Europeans, he replied: "No, I wouldn't go that far."

He also said that whichever plane (Typhoon included) they buy, "remains interoperable and very complementary to our capabilities."

Wait and see.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Eurofighter Typhoon for Japan