Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

I think a LIMITED amount of light COIN aircraft would be fine, whatever the platform, but I think the Marines are going to want to retain or replace some fast movers just to save face! Go ahead and tell the current Hornet and Harrier drivers that they're going to be prop jet jockeys...yeah, they're going to LOVE that! Wink

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Last edited by aaam on Oct 05, 2011 - 03:00 AM; edited 1 time in total

Am I spacing out, or are there a number of posts from this topic missing? Seems to me I remember a number of other posts (including one from me) that somehow aren't here any more.

In any case, remember that this came from one article written by one Major in Marine Corps Gazette. The various press articles are either just referring back to him or are referring to each other. It's sorta like all that buzz on whether or not a NATO aircraft had shot down a Scud, wherein the only actual claimant was an article in Al Jazeera, that people kept repeating.

Anyway, aside from being a really bad idea for USMC. it's really unlikely to occur if for no other reasons (and there are lots) than the lengthy period it would take to get the production line back up (many suppliers have left), then to build the a/c and that it would be hideously expensive and would result in a plane that while it's the world's best pure fighter is actually less capable for the Marines mission than what they already have and are scheduled to get.

The main reason that this should not happen is that the F-22 cannot effectively do what Marine aviation is supposed to do... which is provide CAS to the troops on the ground. It also has the limitation of needing well-maintained airbases and not being a carrier-capable aircraft.

I don't get why USMC are suddenly so obsessed with cutting edge 5-gen jets? Its not like they are going to deal with the Chinese air force. That's AF/Navy's job.

They need aircraft that can perform CAS/FAC missions, not a very demanding task for current&future UAVs.

batu731 wrote:

I don't get why USMC are suddenly so obsessed with cutting edge 5-gen jets? Its not like they are going to deal with the Chinese air force. That's AF/Navy's job.

They need aircraft that can perform CAS/FAC missions, not a very demanding task for current&future UAVs.

They're the Marines! They operate with a smaller budget than the other branches and are probably sick of everyone else having all the nice toys! Very Happy

They just want to play too! Can't say I blame them...who wouldn't want Raptors?!? Seriously though, F-22 isn't the answer for the Marines for the above reasons.

batu731 wrote:

I don't get why USMC are suddenly so obsessed with cutting edge 5-gen jets? Its not like they are going to deal with the Chinese air force. That's AF/Navy's job.

They need aircraft that can perform CAS/FAC missions, not a very demanding task for current&future UAVs.

Assumption #1 response: USMC has shown no sign of wanting a 5th generation fighter. They do need a successor to the Harrier and Congress is the one that said that would have to be the JSF. The F-35A in a STOVL version meets all of their requirements and then some.

Assumption #2 response: CAS is a very demanding role, considerably more so that some of the ones that get all the glamor.

I would bet it's nearly impossible to say "Hoorah" with an OBOGS malfunction.

outlaw162 wrote:

I would bet it's nearly impossible to say "Hoorah" with an OBOGS malfunction.

Well, since it's actually "Hooah", and that's used by the Army with the AF tagging along, USMC probably wouldn't miss it that much.

On the other hand, if it's "Oorah", then they would be upset and no doubt bayonet the OBOGS.

Unless, of course, it's a USN exchange pilot who would then be most concerned with "Hooyah", and would in retaliation paint the OBOGS gray.

Kind of like the joke, "What does the order, 'Secure the building', mean to each service"?

Smile

A Marine guy told me the first 'H' in Hoorah is silent.

Fix bayonets....

Very Happy

(All I know is what I've seen in movies)

I'm thinkin a stealth stovl A-10! Never happen. To bad. Samething for F-22. Inless people think before they vote next year! If we don't get a new Pres. next term we're going to be defenceless in another 4 years. USMC has been given second rate weapons for years. This says alot about what our boys can do with very little. The best defence is a good offence. Give'em the best. Knowone has ever attacked someone they though would kill them easy inless given no other choice. Remember the sleeping giant!"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. Dec. 7, 1941. Japan thought wrong and Yamamoto said it, not me. This time let them know we're the giant before they to something stupid. "Keep arming'em"
TSFG

Quote:

The OV-10 has a considerably longer range than either the Tucano or the T-6. It also seems to have a larger payload, has greater redundancy, and aside from its annoying ditching issue, is combat-proven in multiple conflicts over 30 years with multiple countries in COIN operations.

Yeah, the Bronco has a strong background. Imagine how awesome a modernized OV-10 would be. You could take the same avionics, weapons systems and sensors found on the AH-1Z and put them on a OV-10X.

The Marine Major has apparently qualified his original report:

From the Walton Sun http://www.waltonsun.com/articles/force ... -plan.html

Cannon said Tuesday he stood by what he wrote but downplayed the F-22 rhetoric.

“It is all based on analysis,” Cannon said. “The article is really based on there being no plan ‘B’ for the F-35.”

---------------

Well, there we go. I guess I would have more respect for his position in the first place if he just came out and stated that the Marines needed a strategic "Plan B". Nothing more, nothing less. Anyway, his 'correction' speaks for itself, as this thread has too been conjecturing USMC Plan B alternatives like no tomorrow, with little fanboy hesitation or revolt. Smile

The reality though, appears to be that the USMC needs to replace 40-50 Hornets (which would otherwise require a still uncertain and likely more expensive than expected SLEP modernization), plus replace whatever number of Harriers which are still in frontline service today.

Thus... Ready, set, go... let's hear your "Realistic" Plan B options to recapitalize this old force structure given the "Realistic" budgets going forward - Not the originally assumed procurement budgets before austere budget environment talk was ever discussed (outside of long ago projections made by critics of course).

My personal 'Plan B' contribution to the discussion now would include: 1) 50x F-18E Super Hornets block 2.5 plus future integration of the CFT and wide-screen cockpit displays as a superior capability upgrade over the current Hornets and 2) 120-150 'cheap', LHD/LHA operable Super Tucano to replace Harriers on a superior quantitative ratio. Why Super Tucano over the OV-10X? I might concede this part, but the Super T will be much cheaper and much cheaper to sustain and operate over the Life cycle and especially, more efficient to operate in the actual field. Simply, more air frames overhead providing armed recon or CAS for Marines on the ground, is arguably more crucial than how much bigger and how many extra couple of rounds the more expensive, fancier air frame can claim. imho..

p.s. the proposed USMC F-18E block II+ could become the first US Tactical assets to integrate the defensive ATDIRCM system by around 2016 perhaps, in my vision at least.

Times are changing folks, different budgets ahead with simply unsustainable 'Plan A' Programs in the wish list: USMC must adapt, improvise and overcome now. God speed-

discofishing wrote:

Quote:

The OV-10 has a considerably longer range than either the Tucano or the T-6. It also seems to have a larger payload, has greater redundancy, and aside from its annoying ditching issue, is combat-proven in multiple conflicts over 30 years with multiple countries in COIN operations.

Yeah, the Bronco has a strong background. Imagine how awesome a modernized OV-10 would be. You could take the same avionics, weapons systems and sensors found on the AH-1Z and put them on a OV-10X.

But the Tucano has one thing the OV-10 lacks: A production line. If you're going to go to all the trouble to create a whole new one from scratch, why not go all the way and resurrect the Convair Charger, which seemed to be a better plane all around?

We're getting a bit away from the topic here, but if the Super Tucano, T-6 or OV-10X is thought to be good enough to take over the Marines' CAS role, then it would be equally valid to get rid of the A-10 and buy them for USAF as well.

In reality, although I think the Super T would be an ideal and affordable aircraft for low intensity conflicts against not too heavily armed insurgents, I think handing over either the Marine or USAF CAS mission to those a/c would be a serious mistake

My Plan B:

Replace all CVN based F-18C/Ds with F-18E/F "International Roadmap" versions.

For LHD & LHAs go with OV-10X (with EODAS & DIRCM). I like it better than the others due to better visibility, payload, 2 engines, payload versatility, range potential, survivability, combat insertion & evac capability, etc. Boeing has the tooling so the OV-10X line would not have to be built from scratch.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Raptors for the USMC?!?