Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

duplex wrote:

>>I dimly recall India wanted the Viggen but it was blocked by the US because the Viggen had US engines, or something along those lines?>>

Hi Snypa ,thats absolutely correct and this is the main reason why India would never buy a US fighter.The Super Viper and the SH didn't have any chanche
I lilke the Typhoon ,very powerful fighter but I think the chances of Rafale is much greater simply because India already operates the Mirage2000 .
Mirage and Rafale are very similar they have the same suppliers , Safran ,Thales ect and this would save India lot of money in terms of logistics and supply
and last but not least, the RAFALE is much cheaper than Typhoon and has an operational AESA radar.

When the Viggen sale was ongoing, the US wasn't as "close" with India as it is now, plus there was also the issue of trying to block a competitor to potential sales of a US aircraft. Now, conditions have changed. The concern now is not that the US won't sell to you, but that it might put restrictions on who else you want to sell to later. You'll note that even after the Viggen situation, for their next fighter the Swedes still based the engine on a license built US design, and the NG is designed around a US engine directly. In any case, India doesn't seem to hae anyh qualms abvout buying a whole bunch of technically advanced US stuff, the P-8, for one. I suspect the reason the SH and F-16 were dropped were exactly as stated earlier in this forum...India wants to forge additional partnerships with other sources of supply, and the performance of the US plnaes suffer in comparison with the Eurocanards.

Rafale, BTW, does not have an operational AESA. It has a PESA. The AESA RBE2 was only validated this year, and deliveries aren't starting until 2013 (three years later than originally thought because of French delays in funding for the program-- one of the concerns customers have about Rafale, they're not sure the French government really supports it).

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I wouldn't bet on the "much" cheaper part duplex.

>>Rafale, BTW, does not have an operational AESA. It has a PESA. The AESA RBE2 was only validated this year, and deliveries aren't starting until 2013 (three years later than originally thought because of French delays in funding for the program-- one of the concerns customers have about Rafale, they're not sure the French government really supports it)>>

Rafale has an operational AESA which has been tested extensively and deliveries will start early next year , Typhoons AESA is expected to be operational in 2015 (usual delays not included ) ..French govenment is undoubtedly behind RAFALE..Sarkozy is acting like Marketing Director of Dassault ..

Scorpion82 wrote:

I wouldn't bet on the "much" cheaper part duplex.

I don't , but I still think that Rafales chances are higher..The French are the most generous when it comes to ToT and Indian pilots love their M2000's especially after the Kargil war and France has always been a steadfast and reliable partner for India. Rafales carrier landing and superior A2G capability is another plus..There are plenty of reasons which slightly favors Rafale , not the price.

duplex wrote:

Rafale has an operational AESA which has been tested extensively and deliveries will start early next year

That is not the definition of "operational". That is closer to being at the end of it's "developmental" stage. Once it starts production, clear OT&E, and gets installed in deployable Rafales.... then it will be "operational".

By your definition the F-35 went operational years ago when LRIP1 started production. Wink

p.s. Did you mean "working" instead?

p.s. Did you mean "working" instead?[/quote]

Yes ,Rafale has a working AESA today which will be operational early next year..

duplex wrote:

p.s. Did you mean "working" instead?

Yes ,Rafale has a working AESA today which will be operational early next year..[/quote]

There's a big difference between "working" and "operational". After all, we have a number of "working" F-35s (well, they would be if they were flying) , and Russia has two "working" PAK-FAs.

As far as the AESA being operational next year, since Thales themselves, the people that build the radar, say first deliveries in 2013

The first RBE2AA production version was actually delivered in August last year! 2013 is the delivery for batch 4 Rafales.

Scorpion82 wrote:

The first RBE2AA production version was actually delivered in August last year! 2013 is the delivery for batch 4 Rafales.

I'd heard the Rafales new AESA doesn't even have GMTI modes though so is it really what one could call a finished product?

shep1978 wrote:

Scorpion82 wrote:

The first RBE2AA production version was actually delivered in August last year! 2013 is the delivery for batch 4 Rafales.

I'd heard the Rafales new AESA doesn't even have GMTI modes though so is it really what one could call a finished product?

Yep, the UAE demanded improvements to the radar and SPECTRA, so that it was at least as functional as the F-16 Blk 60.

The UAE demanded a 10% range increase for the radar not to fall behint the performance of the APG-80. The other improvments were meant wihout connection to the F-16. Sure the radar in its current form requires further enhancements, but the system in its current form is mature and ready to go as an operational system.

Scorpion82 wrote:

The first RBE2AA production version was actually delivered in August last year! 2013 is the delivery for batch 4 Rafales.

A production representative RB2E was delivered last year for testing between September and December 2010. Validation was achieved in February, 2011. Thales then planned to begin production to equip the Tranche 4 aircraft ordered in 2009, which will be delivered to the French Air Force (assuming the government doesn't cut the program again) in...2013.

To quote Thales (the builder of the radar) itself, "The Rafale will then [my emphasis] become the only European combat aircraft to benefit from the operational advantages of AESA radar technology".

...or at least until Gripen NG enters service

LRIP of the RBE2AA was launched in autuum 2008 and 4 radars are to be delivered and evaluated. Operational Rafale's will be equipped from 2013 onwards. So to cut it short the RBE2AA is not in operational service today, but it is ready and in production for batch 4 examples and some pre-production models are being delivered for opeval by the French forces before. It remains yet to be seen whether the Gripen NG will materialise at all and the Indians were even more concerned about he Gripen NG's AESA than that of the Typhoon.

Scorpion82 wrote:

LRIP of the RBE2AA was launched in autuum 2008 and 4 radars are to be delivered and evaluated. Operational Rafale's will be equipped from 2013 onwards. So to cut it short the RBE2AA is not in operational service today, but it is ready and in production for batch 4 examples and some pre-production models are being delivered for opeval by the French forces before. It remains yet to be seen whether the Gripen NG will materialise at all and the Indians were even more concerned about he Gripen NG's AESA than that of the Typhoon.

In February 2011, Thales issued a press release saying that the RBE2 production model had been validated on the Rafale. They then stated, "...Thales will begin series production of equipment for installation on the aircraft under Tranche 4 ...". So, no doubt they have started production by now and they will be operational in 2013 or soon after.

Regarding NG, Sweden has been working to reduce US content on the aircraft as the US is noted for its constantly changing, I mean "evolving" arms policies. Sweden has had a rough time getting an AESA. Originally they wanted a US system, but documents have shown that the US delayed responding on whether it would be available until after Norway made a decision on their competition, wherein F-35 was a competitor to Gripen. Seeing the writing on the wall, Sweden entered talks with Israel for a system. It is said that the US put pressure on Israel not to cooperate. They then went to Thales who originally seemed a good partner, and agreed to provide them with their AESA antenna for testing and development on the NG. Thales, though, saw which side their bread was buttered on, though, and subsequently refused to make it available for production, reserving the antenna for use on Rafale.

Sweden then turned to Selex. Selex, interestingly enough, is also working with Typhoon for the AESA on it. I guess Eurofighter does not consider Gripen a direct competitor. Plus, they will benefit from testing on NG of Selex' repositioner technology. This will mean that Gripen NG and Typhoon will be the only fighters in the West to have overcome the AESA field of view limitation.

Though the repositioner on the Raven and Captor-E appears not to be the same. The advanatge for Eurofighter is that is has already flown an AESA demonstrator on the Typhoon years ago. Wrt to Britains help the British have a share In the Gripen so they would benefit from its sales as well. It's a pity that the Gripen NG doesn't sell.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

SH and F-16 loses in India; Rafale and Typhoon on shortlist