Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

Four candidates short-listed in Korea's stealth jet project 2011-07-20

http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Det ... 0720000961

"Korea will acquire a new generation of stealth fighter jets from overseas to better counter North Korean provocations, the local defense procurement agency said Wednesday.

The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) said it has narrowed down the candidates to four fighters: the F-15SE Silent Eagle by Boeing, F-35 Lightning II by Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter Typhoon by the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS) and the T-50 PAK-FA by Russian firm Sukhoi.

According to DAPA, the project to acquire 60 fifth-generation stealth fighters is worth 8.29 trillion won ($7.86 billion).

Korea is expected to choose the winner in October next year.

"We've eased the criteria for operational capabilities to ensure more jets could enter the bidding," the agency said in a statement. "We will set up strategies that will allow for the transfer of core technology and that will encourage competition."

DAPA said the new generation of fighters will better prepare Korea against North Korea's "asymmetric capabilities" and will enhance the South's deterrence against surprise air attacks.

The agency said Seoul will also acquire AH-X attack helicopters from overseas. The AH-1W SuperCobra by Bell and AH-64D Block III by Boeing, both American choppers, will compete with the EC-665 Tiger by Eurocopter of France and the T-129 by Turkey.

This project, worth 1.84 trillion won, will see Korea purchase 36 attack helicopters. The winner of the bid will also be announced in October next year. (Yonhap News)"

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Quote:

Korea will acquire a new generation of stealth fighter jets from overseas to better counter North Korean provocations, the local defense procurement agency said Wednesday.

So EF and F15SE are 5th gen. now? Very Happy

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/07/113_90150.html

"He said if Korea chooses EADS’s Eurofighter Typhoon, which can fly at a maximum supercruise speed of Mach 2, his company will offer Korea..."

What's this? More anecdotal evidence? Very Happy

More like this (for "'stealth' jets?"): "We've eased the criteria for operational capabilities to ensure more jets could enter the bidding," the agency said in a statement."

Give me a properly evovled and equipped F-16XL for a 2012 fly-off including it's next-gen fluidic thrust vectoring F110 33k lbf engine which should have also been in development (the jet which should have been in development since early 2000s, cough) and for probably around 75% the cost of the cheapest bidder, call it a day.

That money spent on the fluidic TVC would also benefit the F135, any you get stealth too. Besides, a F-16XL would not be 75% of a F-35 (due to expensive avionics and additional airframe weight.

cola wrote:

"He said if Korea chooses EADS’s Eurofighter Typhoon, which can fly at a maximum supercruise speed of Mach 2, his company will offer Korea..."

What's this? More anecdotal evidence? Very Happy

More like more marketing nonsense.
Next it'll be supercruising at Mach 3 with 4 LGB's and 6 A-A missiles, oh don't forget two fuel tanks too Laughing

(Can't wait to hear the excuses when it's booted from the competition.)

IMO they should do a split buy. 50 F-35's, 10 PAK FA's and ask the US to chip in an extra billion for the purchase .... then immediately send 3 of the PAK FA's to the USAF for inspection. The rest go to red flag.

South Korea will never going to purchase the PAK-FA. Let alone the fact that it's likely less capable and more expensive than the F-35.

SpudmanWP wrote:

That money spent on the fluidic TVC would also benefit the F135, any you get stealth too. Besides, a F-16XL would not be 75% of a F-35 (due to expensive avionics and additional airframe weight.

Right, more like 50%. Certainly with that $60 billion+ development, years of delays, higher upkeep costs and all.

Why on earth would anyone buy and F-16XL over say the Typhoon or Rafale? Could someone give me some solid reasons (besides the so often misinformed economic reasons).

cola wrote:

"He said if Korea chooses EADS’s Eurofighter Typhoon, which can fly at a maximum supercruise speed of Mach 2, his company will offer Korea..."

What's this? More anecdotal evidence? Very Happy

This should probably read as Mach 2 fast jet with supercruise capabilities.

I wonder what's the schedule for the ROKAF's F-X3 competition. Isn't the introduction required in 2016? If so I can't see the PAK FA making the run at all. Even if available on time politics will likely tilt the competition towards one of the US designs.

Scorp, I concur with the probable error re: Mach speed. It was either supposed to read something as you mentioned, or maybe M 1.2 supercruise, etc - neglecting the '1 and dot' in front of the 2. No biggie.

Re: the 'intro' date that, would indeed make a difference also if it was a 'buy' date in 2016 for operational jets, being delivered in 2018 (which the F-35A option should be able to deliver on), or 'operational jet delivery' date starting in 2016. (which would translate into buying both more expensive and still pre-mature T-50 AND F-35 in 2014).

Re: the F-16XL comments.. yes, an evolved, updated block F-16XL - if had been properly developed and implemented as an independent project back in early 2000s - would be lighter, less complex to manufacture albeit, less stealthy and have a smaller engine compared to F-35. I'd guess an FY14 PUC buy would probably cost 65%-75% per 2014 F-35A. A buy in 2016 would probably cost 75% the PUC, per F-35A.

Why an hypothetical F-16XL over Typhoon or Rafale? It would be a fair competitor imho. Less fuel burn vs Typhoon (better fuel economy), only 1 engine to sustain, longer range with internal fuel, probably a bigger payload, evolved avionics/engine incorporating latest off-the-shelf mission computer, sensors (consider same MLD suite as F-22s, linked visually to evolved helmet display) and EW management. It would likely have super-cruised too with 6x (4+2) missiles if it had incorporated the properly evolved, next-gen 'advanced augmentor' F110 engine @ 32-33k lbf. Equal to or superior rate of climb given upgraded power. Probably cheaper per PUC.

If Russia sells the PAK-FA to South Korea, I will shave my head and eat my own hair. Guiness

geogen wrote:

Re: the F-16XL comments.. yes, an evolved, updated block F-16XL - if had been properly developed and implemented as an independent project back in early 2000s - would be lighter, less complex to manufacture albeit, less stealthy and have a smaller engine compared to F-35. I'd guess an FY14 PUC buy would probably cost 65%-75% per 2014 F-35A. A buy in 2016 would probably cost 75% the PUC, per F-35A.

Why an hypothetical F-16XL over Typhoon or Rafale? It would be a fair competitor imho. Less fuel burn vs Typhoon (better fuel economy), only 1 engine to sustain, longer range with internal fuel, probably a bigger payload, evolved avionics/engine incorporating latest off-the-shelf mission computer, sensors (consider same MLD suite as F-22s, linked visually to evolved helmet display) and EW management. It would likely have super-cruised too with 6x (4+2) missiles if it had incorporated the properly evolved, next-gen 'advanced augmentor' F110 engine @ 32-33k lbf. Equal to or superior rate of climb given upgraded power. Probably cheaper per PUC.

Eurocanards have all the work already done, the supercruise, the reduced RCS, the high agailty, the high warload etc etc etc. I mean do you honestly think F-16XL could compete with Typhoon? You're having a laugh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1zk_uPT0Y

You can't just slap the F-22's MLD on, throw in a next gen engines, plug the HMD's etc etc like its a bloody lego kit. It's a fallacy to think this lego-esque F-16XL would be a bargain too and even more silly is to think you could purchase it for LESS then what already developed and operational aircraft now cost. At least the Eurocanards have some stealth too, or did you plan on wheeling out the lego RAM to stick on the F-16XL, (remember without proper RCS reduction the F-16XL would be a big juicy target.)

The F-16 already has an RCS an order of magnitude less than an F-15, its not that much worse off than eurocanards.

Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

F-35 & T-50 PAK-FA Compete S. Korea + F-15E + Typhoon