Forum: Technology

Put it down not too long ago. Very interesting...especially anything to do with the Pentagon and how they resist change/new thinking and handle projects there. After reading what Boyd and his followers wanted the F-16 to be and worked so hard to get...kinda made me feel like the air force raped the thing with a wooden dildo. Almost like taking a F-1 race car and loading it up with four kids and groceries.

Sure sounded like the man could fly a jet though!

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There are actually two books about Boyd in our <a href="http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books.html">military aviation bookstore</a>:

<a href="http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books_book3117.html">
Boyd : The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War</a>
<a href="http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books_book3118.html">The Mind of War: John Boyd and American Security</a>

I supposed your talking about the first one?

Lieven

There is actually the thrid and the first 1/3 is talking about Boyd, his work and their relationships while back in the Pentagon: The Pentagon Wars.

Reading it for the 4th time right now. It's become dictum to me. Boyd was one of the greatest thinkers the USAF and USMC ever had. No doubt in my mind.

After reading Boyd's book, and hearing him speak in several interviews I know why he never pinned a star on his uniform. Even though you might be one of the best pilots in the military, and a very revolutionary aviation tactics thinker, you don't have to cram it down everyone's throat every chance you get. The man had the same exact problem that Robin Olds and Randy Cunningham had. They couldn't keep their lips together for too long. Boyd could've been a general if he hadn't whipped out his d*ck and stepped on it so many times.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

But he didn't really care about rank, other than to get what he wanted. And he lived for conflict, he thrived on it.

When and where did you hear him speak?

Boyd's philosophies are also highly regarded in the business world, especially among "A-type" personalities.

Never heard Boyd speak in person, although I've had several opportunities. He speaks a lot on tv. If you have Discovery Wings on digital cable or satellite, he will appear quite often on that channel. The man is/was a helluva pilot, so I should probably leave my personal feelings aside on this board. However, the last negative thing I will add about Boyd was that I really lost respect for him after what he said about the Thunderbirds. That team does more singlehandedly to promote Air Force aviation and recruiting than any other flying unit in the USAF. It's not just 6 jet jockeys who put on a show on the weekends and then go out for a beer and a piece of p*ssy as he put it. Bottom line, as a USAF vet I take offense to anything negative said about the Thunderbirds, especially in that context. Very uncool indeed.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

habu2 wrote:

Boyd's philosophies are also highly regarded in the business world, especially among "A-type" personalities.

But I bet only one out of ten of those people could tell you who he is.

TC wrote:

Never heard Boyd speak in person, although I've had several opportunities. He speaks a lot on tv. If you have Discovery Wings on digital cable or satellite, he will appear quite often on that channel. The man is/was a helluva pilot, so I should probably leave my personal feelings aside on this board. However, the last negative thing I will add about Boyd was that I really lost respect for him after what he said about the Thunderbirds. That team does more singlehandedly to promote Air Force aviation and recruiting than any other flying unit in the USAF. It's not just 6 jet jockeys who put on a show on the weekends and then go out for a beer and a piece of p*ssy as he put it. Bottom line, as a USAF vet I take offense to anything negative said about the Thunderbirds, especially in that context. Very uncool indeed.

He does give them credit for being a great recruiting tool, he never denied that. But he's right on in his assessment, for better or worse. I like the TBirds, and enjoy watching them, but I agree with him. You're going to discredit him for one comment he made? Come on....
And what interviews? I have DWings on at least 2-3 hours a day, and I've yet to see him on tape on a single show. The only time he's ever been mentioned is on the Legends Of Airpower epidose about him. And even then there was not tape of him actually shown.

Last edited by TC on Nov 22, 2004 - 11:50 PM; edited 1 time in total

Check shows like Wings over Vietnam, and sometimes when they air shows about Desert Storm, and you should be able to see him. Not every time of course, but sometimes you will see him. But it isn't just one comment that he made that I discredit him for. Rather, it is his personality, and the way he likes to get his point across that he actually discredits himself in my opinion. He's probably right about several things, but he's a jerk. Then again, that's my opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions... Wink

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Doubt anyone will get the opportunity to hear him speak in person - John Boyd passed away in 1997.

TV reruns allow him to live on I guess. Didn't know he was dead. However, I still don't condone what he said about the Thunderbirds, among other things. If I may digress for a moment, I used to live down the street from the Blue Angels, and I saw firsthand the good things they did for not only the people of Pensacola, but every community they came in contact with. The Thunderbirds do the same. So to say that it's just 6 jocks out to wow the crowds, and get some p*ssy on the side, is like spitting in their faces if you ask me.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

That's one of the things I lament, not knowing about him when he was alive. I would have loved to hear one of his briefings, ay one of them.

Discredit himself? There was nothing he said that ever discredited himself. He did his homework. The way he said things was maybe not the best way, but even he admitted that. He was "just a dumb fighter pilot, I don't know any better..." when describing his interpersonal ettiquette. A jerk, you're damn right he was, and it's damn good thing he was too. Thank your lucky stars he was as much a jerk as he was, otherwise this website wouldn't exist. Without a doubt, without John Boyd, and his ardent tenacity, there would be no E-M, no LWF, no F-16, period.

Last edited by Roscoe on Dec 06, 2004 - 03:30 AM; edited 1 time in total

Lieven wrote:

There are actually two books about Boyd in our <a href="http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books.html">military aviation bookstore</a>:

<a href="http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books_book3117.html">
Boyd : The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War</a>
<a href="http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books_book3118.html">The Mind of War: John Boyd and American Security</a>

I supposed your talking about the first one?

Lieven

I've read both. The <a href="http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books_book3118.html">latter</a> is the older of the two and was written with Boyd's permission, i.e. lots of interviews. The <a href="http://www.f-16.net/aviation_books_book3117.html">former</a> is very recent and was written after his death by a man who never met Boyd. I found the newer one, while still a little over the top in aggrandizing JB, was a lot more balanced than the older one.

As flight test engineer with a MS in aero engineering, here is my $.02 worth...

Boyd was a certifiable genius (as well as a certifiable head case). Cases in point:

1) He converted a simple physics lesson into the energy-maneuverability theory
2) He was the first to actually do a useful analytical study of air combat from the cockpit perspective
3) He was the first to fully articulate the value of time in the decision process. Not the first to appreciate it nor write about it, but his detail and overall concept (and application to both military and business) went far beyond anyone before him
4) His detailed studies presented in his various briefings were beyond the comprehension of most normal folks...his cognitive skills were nothing short of phenomenal
5) The ability to work outside the military system and still succeed is nothing short of miraculous

As for the moniker "the best fighter pilot ever", I wasn?t convinced. Yes he was good, yes he understood how to make the plane do things most couldn?t, but justifying the title by his knack of winning his 40-second bet is a stretch. As I read it, he understood that a snap roll in a Thud would dump huge amounts of energy, more than an unsuspecting adversary could counter. Hence, from the lead, purely defensive position, he knew the ?Top Gun hit the brakes? maneuver was guaranteed to drive the pursuer right on by. That was the maneuver that won him his bet every time. Hence the accusation, probably rightly so to some extent, that he was a ?one trick pony.?

Quite frankly, had he been just a little more of a people person (OK, he needed to be a lot more Smile

) an alienated a few less generals, it is likely he could have been even more successful.

Forum: Technology

Anyone read Boyd?