Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Meteor wrote:

Of greater concern to me is not the total number of weapons systems out there, but the lack of variety of systems. Twenty years from now the USAF, USN, and USMC are going to be totally dependent on the F-35 for all of their fighter assets. If an OBOGS failure such as the one currently affecting the F-22 should happen, potentially all US fighter assets could be grounded simultaneously. The same would apply to a structural failure such as the one that recently grounded all the legacy F-15s. In the current F-22 grounding situation, the slack can be picked up by F-15, '16, and '18 assets. In an all F-35 military, that would not be an option.

In this situation, he DoD would not ground the entire fleet. They would still fly all of these jets despite the fact that there might be a problem that puts pilots in danger. Believe it or not (and they would never admit it) the DoD cares more about their bottom line, image, and getting missions done than it does the people that make that mission happen. People are expendable to them and can always be replaced. That sounds cold, but that's the way it is. The DoD would never ground the entire F-35 fleet across the services if it were the only weapons system they had to rely on like the situation you described.

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Meteor wrote:

The failures might not be only attributable to design, manufacturing, or maintenance issues. There will be only one radar for all US fighters. If the bad guys manage to devise a counter to the F-35 radar or its software, the entire US BVR capability could be compromised. The same applies to the dependence on a single BVR missile, the AIM-120. If the bad guys can defeat the Slammer, all BVR capability for the F-35 is gone, along with that of any remaining ancient F-15, '16, '18, and '22 aircraft.

Thats a valid concern since the AIM-54 went - certainly makes things easier for any advanced potential adversaries to come up with workable countermeasures and tactics.

Maybe you can borrow a few Meteors - if they make it into service by 2030 Laughing

Well doesn't everybody play by the same pre-defined set of rules and always have? Did the F15, F16, F18 have a 200-1 kill ratio against opponents in these controlled exercises before the F22 came along? And in the real world that F16 that got the Raptor never would have happened. I realize it was training and all that but in real life had the F22 missed with it's missile the F16 would have still been on his radar and not allowed to just fly up behind him and shoot him down. From what I have read about the 2? shoot downs, in reality in real life neither one of them would have happened.[/quote]

In the real world, the bandits don't have to play by the same rules or use the same procedures that Red Air is required to use during the training exercises.

Ex.
The MiG's 29's and SU's don't need to use radar to locate, track and attack US aircraft, I don't think the aggressor F-16, or 15 were fitted with an IR system for scanning, tracking and targeting a laser range finder to provide target range, nor do they have a helmet mounted sights.

You don't have to stay above the artificial "hard deck", you can fly below 500 feet if you have the skill and the guts to do it.

grinner68 wrote:

The MiG's 29's and SU's don't need to use radar to locate, track and attack US aircraft,

In fair weather, yes you'd be correct. Good luck with that tactic over European skies...

grinner68 wrote:

In the real world, the bandits don't have to play by the same rules or use the same procedures that Red Air is required to use during the training exercises.

Ex.
The MiG's 29's and SU's don't need to use radar to locate, track and attack US aircraft, I don't think the aggressor F-16, or 15 were fitted with an IR system for scanning, tracking and targeting a laser range finder to provide target range, nor do they have a helmet mounted sights.

You don't have to stay above the artificial "hard deck", you can fly below 500 feet if you have the skill and the guts to do it.

Force on Force exercises focus on tactics and overall capabilities rather than individual system capabilities. Overall capabilities are what’s important and in that regard the F-15 an F-16s are very good analogs for Mig-29s and Su-27s. The only tactically significant systematic capability germane to the Russian jets is their IRST but with the current capability that’s highly debatable. Even the most advanced IRST have several limitations compared to radars.

They are highly susceptive to spectral conditions and are unable to generate engagable tracks or ID on a target except at fairly close ranges. The current in top end Russian kit, the OLS-35, has a frontal detection range of roughly 25nm and that’s under ideal spectral conditions. The F-22 is known to employ IR signature management technologies such as TOPCOAT (which is purported to be a shifter and absorber), component shielding, a flat exhaust plum via flat nozzle and reportedly leading edge cooling on the wings. It’s unlikely that these measures have as significant of an impact as the SM technologies employed in the RF spectrum but all that’s needed is to get the Raptor within the MER of the slammers before counter detection.

Given the F-22’s significant altitude and speed advantage and the current evolution of the AMRAAM has outpaced all competitors for quite a while now this implies a significant advantage to the F-22. I’ve heard that it’ll have a high Pk single shot in the 40-50nm range; i.e. almost twice the brochure detection range of the OLS-35. This doesn’t even account for the impact at the F-22’s IR SM technologies have on detection ranges.

Finally you’re incorrect about limitations imposed on the guys & girls flying for the 57th ATG . It is known that they have tried flying very low using terrain masking and “diving down in the notch” to try to thwart the F-22’s advantages. They were ineffective. The F-22 may not be panning out on the MX side and I’m sure not having full 24 jet squadrons plays a role in this, but I have yet to hear one grumbling about how effective it is once it’s in the air.

Raptor_DCTR wrote:

That MC rate happened for one day and in fact we couldn't even fly the next few days because we were so broke. That number is also rigged by supervision. The Raptor will never be at 100% MC rate because there is always jets in L.O. The AF likes to throw those numbers out to make things sound good but doesn't tell you what happens after that. Like the whole big deal about flying 30 lines in one day, again we were so broke we couldn't fly for a couple days. You can't surge fly this airplane, you can't fly it a lot, and it's true MC rate in somewhere in the high 60's to 70's. It's a piece of crap.

It's always great to hear from someone with direct experience and expertise. If it doesn't violate any security rules, can you elaborate at all on the most significant factors that impair maintenance? LO? Engines? Avionics?

Also, do you anticipate that LM has made significant advances that should result in improvement in maintenance factors for the F-35? I know it's 'only' your opinion, but that carries a lot more weight around here than mine!

Thanks in advance.

Mike

I for one am anxiously awaiting word from AF on the cause of the F-22 OBOGS problems and what the mitigation plan will be.

As someone who is closely involved in supporting OBOGS installations in F-16's, the recent troubles with OBOGS in the Raptor are cause for concern.

Is the fleet still grounded? If not, when did they resume flying and what alt are they cleared to?

Still grounded with no end in sight. I heard a solid rumor from a guy in the know (he clued me into the Alaskan crash being OBOGS-related long before it was released) but I'm not going to betray his trust. Suffice it to say they think they have a smoking gun...now it's a matter of finding a fix.

Note that has been more than one instance of this, hence the grounding. Crew safety is paramount, regardless of what was stated in an earlier post...

Quote:

Roscoe
Suffice it it to say they think they have a smoking gun...now it's a matter of finding a fix.

Good to know they're working on the problem (hope it doesn't carry over into the F-35 Lightning II)!

Quote:

Roscoe
Note that has been more than one instance of this, hence the grounding.

OUCH! Had no idea, thought it was a fairly new problem with the Alaska crash (and maybe with that other crash, testing the release of a small diameter bomb attributed to GLOC)? Shrug

There was also the pilot who brushed some trees on landing approach and couldnt even remember what happened.

BDF wrote:

Finally you’re incorrect about limitations imposed on the guys & girls flying for the 57th ATG . It is known that they have tried flying very low using terrain masking and “diving down in the notch” to try to thwart the F-22’s advantages. They were ineffective. The F-22 may not be panning out on the MX side and I’m sure not having full 24 jet squadrons plays a role in this, but I have yet to hear one grumbling about how effective it is once it’s in the air.

Just to add to this, aggressor pilots have said on record that they've tried everything that they can think of(i.e. coming in low, doppler notch, high and fast, wide spacing over mulitple azimuths/altitudes, etc... and nothing changed the outcomes.

munny wrote:

There was also the pilot who brushed some trees on landing approach and couldnt even remember what happened.

Not saying he wasn't hypoxic, but i would probably say that to if I clipped some trees with a $130 million airplane.

Quote:

munny
There was also the pilot who brushed some trees on landing approach and couldn't even remember what happened

Hadn't heard of that. And Raptor DCTR great response! Thumb

Beazz, I don't know if you may have overlooked the sarcasm, but the pushing is enough.

Raptor DCTR, you have violated at least 2 of f16.net's forum etiquettes in your last post:

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Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

OBOGS problems affecting F-22 and other jets