Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

Hi,
Greetings to all forum members and a salute to all the Viper pilots and the ground crews. By the way, awesome site and fantastic forum! I hope you don't mind if I occassionally pester you with questions. If I don't find an answer to my queries in the existing topics, I'll try to keep them in this little topic of mine, so not to to litter the forum with dozens of new ones.
Thing is I am writing an adventure story based around a group of fictional
F-16 pilots. I have amanged to complete the first part with the limited knowledge I have, but now I have run into a brick wall. Can't go any further without getting a bit more technical. Writing fiction is the only way I can fulfill my lifelong dream of flying (I've been cursed with probably the worst case of seasickness known to mankind - can't even get into a car Confused

). It is only a story, that probably just my friends would ever bother to read, but still I respect the Viper too much to allow myself making too many small mistakes, let alone some serious, foolish ones.
Anyway, all I know about flying is what I can read, find on the web or check out in the computer games, so my knowledge is close to none. I'm clueless. I apologise in advance for any questions which may be lame or stupid to you.

The first thing I need to ask is the weapons configuration for Mavericks. How many Mavericks (type A,B or D) could possibly fit on a Viper? The plane in question is F-16C block 50. In the story the plane is supposed to fly a CAS mission, short range, so no external fuel tanks - just fitted out to the maximum for some serious tank busting. I can find some contradictory information as to the amount of Mavericks F-16 can carry. Some sources say it is limited to 6 missiles (2 missiles on hardpoints 3 / 7 each and 1 on hardpoints 4 / 6 each), some say it's 4 missiles (1 each on hardpoints 3/4/6/7 - but I believe that is the limit of type G mavericks only), then I come across some sources mentioning F-16s with Mavericks on triple rails (on hardpoints 3 nd 7) and that goes as far as 12 missiles (triple rails on hardpoints 3/4/6/7 each). I am afraid I get completely lost there. Can anyone shed some light please?

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Don't know what happened. The replies disappeared Smile

Must have used some kind of advanced stealth technology Smile

Anyway i got the answers i needed and i think I understand what's the problem and why are Mavericks very seldom seen on the inside stations.

Now another problem I'm trying to figure out is that: If the plane has no LANTIRN or similar system, would it make sense to load up a single Maverick to give the pilot a sort of improvised FLIR device?

I've heared of something like that, never seen it though but the track is good. Maybe the technicians will tell you something more about this matter. But it really is a good question. Thumbs up!

Hi guys, can anyone shed some light please. I'm pretty sure I have read somewhere about Maverick being used as an improvised FLIR device, but I have no idea whether that was a legitimate "back in the old days" story or just a statement that such a thing is theoretically possible. Would the picture quality be of any use for navigation purposes or optical searching for ground targets?

Meanwhile, I've got another question. In my story the F-16 gets into a real trouble. The pilot flies into an ambush, gets locked on by enemy MiGs-21/93 and fired at with a couple of R-77s (that's Adder in NATO code I think). Lacking any BVR weapons, the F-16 pilot finds himself in a real trouble. I'll use the fast -forward button to get to the point: he drops the stores, drpoes chaffs, ECMs like mad, maneouvers like crazy and nothing works. He dives straight for the ground hoping the missiles would lose the lock in the ground clutter, but still can't shake them off. Then he spots a hill, turns into it, nearly crashing a plane and manages to get behind it. The R-77s, already gone autonomous and very close, lose the lock and when the plane emerges from the other side of the hilltop a second later, they can't regain the lock. The Viper makes it to the friendly territory and the MiGs decide to call it a day.

Now the thing is: can a real flier tell me how bad is the bullsh*t factor in this? Can R-77s be fooled this way?

shrimpman wrote:

Hi guys, can anyone shed some light please. I'm pretty sure I have read somewhere about Maverick being used as an improvised FLIR device, but I have no idea whether that was a legitimate "back in the old days" story or just a statement that such a thing is theoretically possible. Would the picture quality be of any use for navigation purposes or optical searching for ground targets?

IIRC that was done by A-10s during Desert Storm.

shrimpman wrote:

Meanwhile, I've got another question. In my story the F-16 gets into a real trouble. The pilot flies into an ambush, gets locked on by enemy MiGs-21/93 and fired at with a couple of R-77s (that's Adder in NATO code I think). Lacking any BVR weapons, the F-16 pilot finds himself in a real trouble. I'll use the fast -forward button to get to the point: he drops the stores, drpoes chaffs, ECMs like mad, maneouvers like crazy and nothing works. He dives straight for the ground hoping the missiles would lose the lock in the ground clutter, but still can't shake them off. Then he spots a hill, turns into it, nearly crashing a plane and manages to get behind it. The R-77s, already gone autonomous and very close, lose the lock and when the plane emerges from the other side of the hilltop a second later, they can't regain the lock. The Viper makes it to the friendly territory and the MiGs decide to call it a day.

Now the thing is: can a real flier tell me how bad is the bullsh*t factor in this? Can R-77s be fooled this way?

Do what you like its fiction - have you not seen the SAM scene in "Behind Enemy Lines"? how much BS can you get Laughing

No one really knows the R-77 performance - yep its possible it could lose its lock, or it could go stupid, or its motor might fail prematurely - so take your pick I guess.

Also you dont mention a time frame but an F-16C Block 50 is likely carrying two AIM-120s on its wingtip rails.

for the Mavrick as Flir,yes,F5 did this in the saharan desert in the 80s.
for the R77,it´s not that accurate/deadly as advised by russky fans,indian auditor agency found in 2009 half of them faulty

IAF’s air-to-air missiles are faulty: Report
http://www.zeenews.com/news547474.html

IMHO every good pilot who can do a beam maneuver with some active jamming,could manage it to quit safe

Thanks fot your input guys. I appreciate this. The info about R-77s being that faulty is actually invaluable for me Smile

I had an impression that they were nearly as good as Aim-120s. Should have remembered the Russians were always extremely economic with truth in any official information they have ever broadcasted.

The story is a fiction, I know, but I try to keep a healthy balance between bullsh*t and boring. No bullsh*t would make the story about as exciting as reading about a truck driver going down a motorway, but too much would make it pretty much like the SAM scene or the Iron Eagle stuff Smile

The background I'm afraid is already pretty much straining it, so I have to keep the flying part as real as it can get. The action takes place in the near future in 2014 after the world's gone a bit haywire with the arab revolution having sweept through the middle east and africa, leaving half the regions devastated by dozens of civil wars. When i have read what's the value of the mercenary market in Iraq alone and that companies like the Blackwater can not only field their own limited airforce, but even design and manufacture their own helicopter models, the idea for the whole thing was born. The pilots in my story are mercenaries, an air-force for hire. Sounds lame, but I think I have managed to create a believable story behind it. Anyway, they own a few F-16C block 50, but after an international embargo was enforced they have no means of procuring any sort of modern weapons other than what they manage to salvage form the "junkyard" or what have fallen out the back of a truck, pretty much like what was going in ex-USSR states in the early nineties. it's going pretty well so far, got the first part ready. I'll try to translate into English when I'm not too busy at work and post it somewhere here. Hope you'll enjoy.

Hi guys,
Got another lame question. This time it's the Cat I/III switch. I found a great topic here http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-11944.html , but still don't understand few things.
If Cat III does not impose G-limit, what does? Is it FLCS? And if so, would I be correct to assume that the moment the last bomb leaves the rack, FLCS knows there's no heavy stores anymore and puts the G-limit back to 9 without any input from the pilot?
And if the plane takes off in Cat III mode, gets to the target zone and drops the bombs, does the pilot have to manually hit the switch to Cat I position when he heads back, or does the plane know Cat III limits no longer apply?
Thanks in advance
Shrimp[/url]

The FLCS limits the symmetric positive G based on AOA and the symmetric negative g based on airspeed. The FLCS does not limit g based on the stores. It's up to the pilot to not exceed the g limits (symmetric and asymmetric) associated with the stores loading. And even though a particular configuration may be cleared to 9 g's symmetric, it's also up to the pilot to manually observe the lesser asymmetric g limit for the configuration.

The Cat I/III switch limits AOA (which also affects g limiting) and roll rate. A pilot who takes off in Cat III must manually reposition the switch to Cat I after the bombs are gone if the pilot wants the higher AOA limit and roll rate capability associated with Cat I.

Thank for that, Exfltsafety. It turned out I've made a bad mistake in my text. Got that corrected now.

Now I have another problem. I am describing a scene of a dramatic flameout landing after an engine shuts down shortly after take-off. Can you suggest me what could have been the reasonable source of an engine malfunction? I need something that would keep the plane grounded for at least 4-5 days, but something that can be fixed in the field...
Thanks a mil
Shrimp

FOD may be?

Thanks Yakuza. I'm pretty sure it would do, if I only knew what FOD is... Doh

Would you mind giving me some hint?

By the way I would like to share some good news. It turns out my writing seems to be much better than I thought. My first book which has been collecting dust on the hard drive for the past 2 years, got accepted to a writing competition, and then not only it made it to the finals, but is actually leading the competition at the moment! Here's the link to the competition if you want to take a look and cast a vote (the site and the fragment of the book is in Polish though). It's the last one on the list - "Gobliny Okraglego Stolu"
http://wydaje.pl/home/competition

To all the non-Polish speakers I will explain what the book is about. The title is "Goblins of the Round Table". It's a war story taking place in the apocalyptic near future during a nuclear World War 3, with the western Allies battling the forces of the eastern Pact. The frontline runs right through my hometown, reduced to nothing more than an endless urban wasteland, smoking heaps of rubble. The story is about a group of feral kids, calling themselves The Goblins, desperately trying to survive in the sewers beneath the ruins. By coincidence they get caught in the crossfire in a deadly clash of military intelligence forces and no one can guess how important role they will play in the deadly intrigue of the superpowers.
Unfortunately there are no airplanes in this book, but i'm working on it in my next one

If you like it even though it's in Polish, you can vote on it anyway. Just scroll all the way down to the very bottom of the page, hit the "Oddaj Glos" button, which stands for "vote". Then enter your email address in the box and hit "wyslij" which stands for "send". You will then receive an email from the competition admin asking for confirmation of the vote. Just hit the link in the email and that's it -the vote is cast. Thank you all. I'll keep you posted on the results tomorrow! Very Happy

Cheers!!!

shrimpman wrote:

Thanks Yakuza. I'm pretty sure it would do, if I only knew what FOD is... Doh

Would you mind giving me some hint?

FOD: Foreign Object Damage caused by Foreign Object Debris. Think bird strike, among many other possibilities.

shrimpman wrote:

The first thing I need to ask is the weapons configuration for Mavericks. How many Mavericks (type A,B or D) could possibly fit on a Viper? The plane in question is F-16C block 50. In the story the plane is supposed to fly a CAS mission, short range, so no external fuel tanks - just fitted out to the maximum for some serious tank busting. I can find some contradictory information as to the amount of Mavericks F-16 can carry. Some sources say it is limited to 6 missiles (2 missiles on hardpoints 3 / 7 each and 1 on hardpoints 4 / 6 each), some say it's 4 missiles (1 each on hardpoints 3/4/6/7 - but I believe that is the limit of type G mavericks only), then I come across some sources mentioning F-16s with Mavericks on triple rails (on hardpoints 3 nd 7) and that goes as far as 12 missiles (triple rails on hardpoints 3/4/6/7 each). I am afraid I get completely lost there. Can anyone shed some light please?

To go back and answer this question, in the past it was possible to load up to 6 AGM-65's on two LAU-88s. However I doubt this was ever practiced and I do not believe all three LAU-88 stations could carry Mavs due to clearance issues. I personally hated this launcher and was happy to get see them trucked off the base. Single loads on LAU-117s are much easier to load and maintain. Many years ago if two were carried one was TV and the other IR.

Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

Can anyone help me with a couple of technical questions?