Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

I imagine some of you guys may have seen this but I came across a video on youtube of some ACM between Rafale M's and Super Hornets. The video has the Top Gun theme music and associated Top Gun dialogue throughout so you may want to mute the sound. The early part of the video is pretty much French carrier ops but around the 3:00 mark it gets to the hud footage of some very clear cut gun, "kills," of the Rhinos. Does anyone have any inside knowledge of this exercise and how the Rhino really performed against the Rafale? We're only seeing the French side, after all, and I can't imagine the Rhino's lost every engagement.

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKOl-ASZMjs

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There was an exercise in summer of 2008 when French Navy Rafales embarked on board an USN carrier (IIRC the Lincoln). It was during this time that there was some DACT. No real details have been revealed.

Thanks, Scorp!

It's amazing how much high alpha nose pointing is possible, while below 2-3 G maneuvering. It speaks volumes af advantages of canard and or thrust vectoring flight controls in a knife fight.

Rafale can truly be a respected multi-role fighter.

I'm sure there are a few enthusiasts out there like myself who would be interested as to how a Super Hornet with CFT, 25k lbf EPE power and possibly even the active aeroelastic wing would see improved ACM performance and agility?

Well it proves that the Rafale could possibly beat the SH inthe MMRCA competition.

I wouldn't go that far, svenphantom. Just because we see footage of some good gun, "kills," does not make the Rafale a better fighter and a better choice for the Indians. This is the French, after all, and they're pretty good at tooting their own horn. Having said that, though I'm admittedly a Super Hornet enthusiast I do have a lot of respect for Rafale and think it's a pretty sexy airplane and a very capable fighter. Both aircraft are quite comfortable in a slow speed close in dogfight and I imagine the Rhino drivers got a few kills of their own.

Just some excerpts from te AFM issue 11/2008

Quote:

"French Rafale on the Teddy" ~ The special report of Rafale M F2's performance during the JTFEX exercise, 2008.

1. In Page 37, a photo shows a Rafale M of 12F flew with an F/A-18F from the Blacklions Squadron, the first frontline squadron of Superhornet Block II.

2. Rafale M F2 met with F/A-18E/F in several 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 2 AA missions during the exercise. However, both sides didn't show their real and complete fighting capability to each other ~ US pilots didn't show the true capability of JHMCS + AIM-9X to French pilots, while 12F was also shy about showing the real capabilities of RBE2 radar, Spectra EWS, and FSO optronic systems.

3. A USN pilot's (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 "Tomcatters") comments for Rafale M:

"A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky."

"The French pilots seem to be happy to its flight performance and its modern cockpit design".

When asked if he would like to swap his Super hornet to a Rafale --> "No, I love my Super Bug way too much...."

4. A French pilot's (pilot of 12F) comments for F/A-18E:

"A great bombing aircraft, but not a fighter for dogfighting."

"Its acceleration capability in the high angle of incidence is not good."

"Rafale is definitely the more nimble one."

"However, F/A-18E has already equipped the JHMCS + AIM-9X, a combination of decisive edge in close-range encounters ~ Although the tactics to counter it have existed now."

Just looking at the HUD footage, there are only 2 times that the French jet gets shots off. There are numerous times that he has a radar lock and the pipper on the Rhino. But there are only 2 trigger pulls which are snap shots (ie high cross rate vs tracking) noted by the event marker in the top left of the hud footage. The first is hard to tell because of the sun glare in the hud. The second, might get some bullets into the right wingtip. You would have to get a range then account for gun spool up and bullet time of flight. Then have x number of frames with bullet impact to call it a kill. I just dont see it. The trigger pull starts with the death dot right on the nose of the Rhino. However, like I said, when you factor in x frames for spool up and bullet flight time, it looks as if the bullets miss to the right of the canopy and may just clip the right wingtip. The Rhino is defensive, and may have a couple of holes in the wingtip, but it wouldnt be a kill. Its not even close to a "clear cut kill" as quoted above.

The French pilots are notorious for exaggerating the results of such friendly mockup fights.

I'm far from an expert, INO, so thanks for the clarification. So these, "kills," that the French are patting themselves on the back about aren't really very good, "kills," at all?!? Are you a Rhino driver? What is your opinion of the Super Hornet and its capabilities as a dogfighter? I'd love to hear of your experiences, INO!

It seems as though the French are about as impressed with their own abilities and aircraft as the Russians are. Who's the bigger blowhard? It's interesting to read Lt. Tremel's comments giving praise for the Rafale but the French pilots calling SH a great bomb truck but taking a dump on it with regards to dogfighting (how typical). I understand that SH is not the best dogfighting aircraft out there but it is far from incapable. SH has one of the best instantaneous turn rates out there and performs best in a slow speed low g fight as illustrated in the video. From what I've seen in air show demos of the aircraft it is also quite adept at pointing its nose.

The Super Hornet is still pretty dang maneuverable. With the JHMCS and AIM-9X, the Rafale's maneuverability edge is questionable in comparison.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Rafale vs Superhornet hud footage