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Arab League asks UN for no-fly zone over Libya



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discofishing
PostPosted: Mar 13, 2011 - 02:28 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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RAS LANOUF, Libya – The world moved a step closer to a decision on imposing a no-fly zone over Libya but Moammar Gadhafi was swiftly advancing Saturday on the poorly equipped and loosely organized rebels who have seized much of the country.

Gadhafi's forces pushed the front line miles deeper into rebel territory and violence erupted at the front door of the opposition stronghold in eastern Libya, where an Al-Jazeera cameraman slain in an ambush became the first journalist killed in the nearly monthlong conflict.

In Cairo, the Arab League asked the U.N. Security Council to impose a no-fly zone to protect the rebels, increasing pressure on the U.S. and other Western powers to take action that most have expressed deep reservations about.

In surprisingly swift action and aggressive language, the 22-member Arab bloc said after an emergency meeting that the Libyan government had "lost its sovereignty." It asked the United Nations to "shoulder its responsibility ... to impose a no-fly zone over the movement of Libyan military planes and to create safe zones in the places vulnerable to airstrikes."

Western diplomats have said Arab and African approval was necessary before the Security Council voted on imposing a no-fly zone, which would be imposed by NATO nations to protect civilians from air attack by Gadhafi's forces.

The U.S. and many allies have expressed deep reservations about the effectiveness of a no-fly zone, and the possibility it could drag them into another messy conflict in the Muslim world.

Gen. Abdel-Fattah Younis, the country's interior minister before defecting, told The Associated Press that Gadhafi's forces had driven even further into rebel territory, past the refinery at Ras Lanouf and were now just 25 miles (40 kilometers) outside Brega, the site of another major oil terminal.

Fewer rebel supporters were seen by an Associated Press reporter further east, suggesting morale had taken a hit as the momentum shifted in favor of the regime.

Outside the rebel stronghold of Benghazi deep in opposition territory, Al-Jazeera cameraman Ali Hassan al-Jaber was killed in what the pan-Arab satellite station described as an ambush.

Correspondent Baybah Wald Amhadi said the crew's car came under fire from the rear as it returned from an assignment south of Benghazi. Al-Jaber was shot three times in the back and a fourth bullet hit another correspondent near the ear and wounded him, Amhadi said.

"Even areas under rebel control are not totally safe," he said. "There are followers, eyes or fifth columns, for Col. Gadhafi."

The Libyan government took reporters from the capital, Tripoli, 375 miles east by plane and bus to show off its control of the former front-line town of Bin Jawwad, the scene of brutal battles six days earlier between insurgents and Gadhafi loyalists using artillery, rockets and helicopter gunships.

A police station was completely destroyed, its windows shattered, walls blackened and burned and broken furniture inside. A nearby school had holes in the roof and a wall. Homes nearby were empty and cars were overturned or left as charred hulks in the road.

Rubble filled the streets and a sulfurous smell hung in the air.

The tour continued 40 miles to the east in Ras Lanouf, an oil port of boxy, sand-colored buildings with satellite dishes on top.

The area was silent and devoid of any sign of life, with laundry still fluttering on lines strung across balconies. About 50 soldiers or militia members in 10 white Toyota pickups, holding up portraits of Gadhafi, smeared with mud as camouflage guarded it. A playground was strewn with bullet casings and medical supplies looted from a nearby pharmacy whose doors had been shot open.

The defeat at Ras Lanouf, which had been captured by rebels a week ago and only fell after days of fierce fighting and shelling, was a major setback for opposition forces who just a week ago held the entire eastern half of the country and were charging toward the capital.

A massive column of black smoke billowed from Ras Lanouf's blazing oil refinery. A Libyan colonel asserted the rebels had detonated it as they retreated.

A resident also reported fighting between government forces and rebels inside Gadhafi's territory in Misrata, Libya's third-largest city, 125 miles (200 kilometers) southeast of Tripoli.

"There's the sound of firing, tanks and rockets," he told The Associated Press by telephone. "We can hear the sound of tanks, but it's hard to go near. It feels like there is a battle at the edge of the city."

Government forces also have recaptured the strategic town of Zawiya, near Tripoli, sealing off a corridor around the capital, which has been Gadhafi's main stronghold.


My question has to do with the capabilities of many of the Arab League nations. Why can't they impose a no-fly zone all by themselves? Most of the member nations possess state of the art western fighter aircraft like F-16s, F-15s, F-18s, Tornado ADVs, Typhoons, Mirage F1s, and Mirage 2000s. Saudi Arabia has E-3s which can manage the battle space and many aircraft can use the same types of air to air missiles.
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runi_dk
PostPosted: Mar 13, 2011 - 04:36 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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You all seem to forget (based on the other threads) that most of these countries are run by dictators, they have absolutely no motivation to help the rebels against another dictator, that would be totally against their own interest. Don't rely on dictators to defeat dictators, they are all corrupt..

Yet again the western world looks passively to crimes against humanity.. just as it has happened many times before.
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PostPosted: Mar 13, 2011 - 10:13 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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You all seem to forget (based on the other threads) that most of these countries are run by dictators, they have absolutely no motivation to help the rebels against another dictator, that would be totally against their own interest. Don't rely on dictators to defeat dictators, they are all corrupt..

Yet again the western world looks passively to crimes against humanity.. just as it has happened many times before.


So I'm going to assuming you're implying that the Arab League can't and/or won't help out in establishing a no-fly zone over Libya. If someone wants to help out, then maybe they should. I just think the US needs to stay out of it. Lets see some European nations go in there and sort things out. How about France spear head an operation for once.

The Western world can't be everywhere at once. The west has acted in the form of UN/NATO missions to places like Bosnia, Kosovo, Haiti, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan and other such places. Take a look at current UN and NATO missions and look at some of their past missions.

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/opera ... rent.shtml

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/top ... tm#current

You can't just have operations, at will, at every hot spot in the world . It costs money and takes time. You want to pay astronomical taxes so that your nation's military can be deployed to hell and gone for any little hint at crimes against humanity? The West is going broke. It needs to take care of its own problems or else it won't be able to help out much in the future. It's a very cruel world out there. It's sad, but in reality you are ALWAYS going to have evil types committing crimes against humanity. It's a cycle that will NEVER end, human nature just doesn't allow for absolute and total peace. I imagine the UN and NATO is doing what it can. Whether their motivation is selfless or selfish, it's still doing something, at least.
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PostPosted: Mar 16, 2011 - 02:33 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Just curious about the opinions from forum members - in what situation do you think a no-fly zone enforcement is warranted against other nations?

If a no-fly zone were warranted for the situation in Libya - wouldn't the situation in Tien An Men square back in 1989(?) warrant the same thing? Using a more recent example, wouldn't the situation in Bahrain also be enough to justify a no-fly zone?
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PostPosted: Mar 17, 2011 - 02:04 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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If a no-fly zone were warranted for the situation in Libya - wouldn't the situation in Tien An Men square back in 1989(?) warrant the same thing? Using a more recent example, wouldn't the situation in Bahrain also be enough to justify a no-fly zone?



Even with such a massacre, China wasn't fractured to the extent of possible civil war. There was no mass rebellion. Dissent was quelled pretty quickly. The situation is quite the opposite in Libya. There is a mass rebellion lead by former military commanders and they are calling for international assistance. Apples and oranges if you ask me.
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geogen
PostPosted: Mar 17, 2011 - 06:46 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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java bro,

If Bahraini conflict results in unfortunate, sustained aerial strafing and bombardment against protesters, then yes, I would concur with you that NATO/US should oppose it and give ultimatums as necessary, against any potential extreme-level oppression.

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yakuza
PostPosted: Mar 17, 2011 - 02:27 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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I´m nots sure geogen,don´t forget the stakes in Bahrein:

-a majority of pro-Iran chiia,against a sunni minority.
-the US are based there,so it has strategic value
-Iran is fueling the conflict from its side,encouraging the chiia demonstraters to go forward with civil disobedience,and overthrow the monarchie(pro-West)

so if US sacrifies its allies one after other,who will give you bases tomorrow,trust you?

look the global picture and interests,not the emotional and "human rights" stuff,the US had itself sent NG to crackdown riot of LA´92 (58 dead)
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discofishing
PostPosted: Mar 17, 2011 - 07:56 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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so if US sacrifies its allies one after other,who will give you bases tomorrow,trust you?


Are those countries really allies though?
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outlaw162
PostPosted: Mar 17, 2011 - 10:35 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Regardless of Arab League encouragement or participation, it appears that a segment of the west wants to maintain a significant will and predisposition for global military intervention, i.e. humanitarian no fly zones and “humanitarian” air strikes to aid “self”-determination, followed years later by a no less than humane exit from the subsequent humanitarian quagmires that result.

Providing qualitative examples of enviable advantages to a particular way of life is probably more convincing than assisting the imposition of it.

However, the humanitarian altruism may be battling with the some new math logic here...

$7.50/gal versus $3.50/gal.

OL

(Could I have used vis-à-vis?)
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PostPosted: Mar 17, 2011 - 11:01 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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geogen wrote:
java bro,

If Bahraini conflict results in unfortunate, sustained aerial strafing and bombardment against protesters, then yes, I would concur with you that NATO/US should oppose it and give ultimatums as necessary, against any potential extreme-level oppression.


Against protesters - ok, I can understand the human rights aspect of that. What if the protesters are rebel troops? At which point that a rebellion becomes an international vs internal matter?

Just to go to a very extreme example - if Texas decided to secede from the United States, and the federal government sent a strike package to hit an airbase or a military installation - and maybe causing some collateral damage - would the international community call for a no-fly zone?

Or maybe for a closer (and more realistic example), if the Libyan pro-Colonel forces bomb a rebel base back to the Stone Age, is that an internal Libyan matter or an international matter? Would it matter if the Colonel is a democratically-elected leader? What if there is a country out there - that are using everything in its arsenal to keep its teritory whole - against a rebel force? Would that ignite the same kind of reactions like what we see with Libya right now? Shouldn't that be its right to use whatever means available to protect its integrity?

And no - I am not Libyan, and no, no relations to the Colonel in question. Just curious about opinions of when and where an international involvement is warranted.
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runi_dk
PostPosted: Mar 18, 2011 - 12:56 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 has been adopted a few moments ago.

I hope they act swiftly, and that Denmark participate too. Gogo!
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outlaw162
PostPosted: Mar 19, 2011 - 09:14 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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All this no fly activity overshadows the news that Knut the polar bear has passed away.

He had been with the females, went for a relaxing swim and just rolled over and died.

He must have been watching CNN.

OL
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discofishing
PostPosted: Mar 20, 2011 - 08:58 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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B-2s have been used in strikes according to this article.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162- ... 03543.html
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outlaw162
PostPosted: Mar 20, 2011 - 03:41 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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The name for this one worries me a little.

Odyssey means “a long wandering” or “extended adventurous trip”.

A guy on another site had a better idea:

Operation “Death by Remote Control”

OL
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PostPosted: Mar 20, 2011 - 11:18 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Wonder how many kill decals have gone up at Creech? Whistle

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