Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Like you I know little of its actual capability and how it works in real life situations (despite the theory behind it) - and whether current receivers can actually work out that they are being hit by an LPI radar. Thats the first claim I have seen myself to give any suggestion - not really sure how credible a catbird report is though.

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Even the F-22 team admits the radar hardware and software of the F-35 is far more advanced. there is nothing they can do about the software (different programing code) but they are trying to replace the T/R modules of the F-22 array with the T/R modules of the F-35. If the F-35s radar is so advanced that the F-22 is trying up upgrade using bits and pieces of it, then I would have to say that if ANYTHING could detect the F-22, it would be it's high tech little brother.

Ok, so let's use catbirds to go in war.. just hung two amraam and two aim9x under it's wings...

LOL, nah, lets put the systems in a B-52, it needs more upgrades.

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

Even the F-22 team admits the radar hardware and software of the F-35 is far more advanced. there is nothing they can do about the software (different programing code) but they are trying to replace the T/R modules of the F-22 array with the T/R modules of the F-35.

Of course it's more advanced... they didn't simply duplicate a 15-year old radar and miniaturize it without at least some improvements. Unfortunately they couldn't simply outfit an APG-77 into a smaller airframe, so they designed a new system called the APG-81.

Is the APG-81 more advanced? Definitely.

Better than the APG-77? In terms of performance, no.

http://www.ausairpower.net/0830-ASPI-Rebuttal-HR.pdf (page 3)

For air to air capabilities, there is no question that the APG-77 is significantly better at detecting LO targets at longer ranges than what the F-35 packs. The two limiting factors for the JSF's detection capabilities are that a smaller radar will not perform as well as a larger one of the same sophistication. The F-16 is a prime example of this, as its radar capabilities have always been hindered by its physical size, even after an AESA upgrade.

The other downside to the JSF comes down to cooling. A more powerful radar means much more heat generated for its size, and a greater demand for coolant. While impressive for its size, the APG-81 still doesn't compare to the Raptor's APG-77... at least in the air to air mode.

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

If the F-35s radar is so advanced that the F-22 is trying up upgrade using bits and pieces of it, then I would have to say that if ANYTHING could detect the F-22, it would be it's high tech little brother.

Of course it could detect a Raptor... anything could detect a raptor, provided it was close enough. It's just that an F-22 (with a more powerful radar and lower RCS than most fighters) supposedly could detect an F-35-sized target from ranges of about 20 nautical miles, whereas the latter would have to close within 9 nautical miles to detect an F-22/B-2 sized-target... almost within visual range.

Likewise one F-22 could detect another at about 12 miles, and an F-35 could detect another F-35 at 15 miles.

On the subject of useless sources.....

battleshipagincourt wrote:

Better than the APG-77? In terms of performance, no.

http://www.ausairpower.net/0830-ASPI-Rebuttal-HR.pdf (page 3)

battleshipagincourt wrote:

For air to air capabilities, there is no question that the APG-77 is significantly better at detecting LO targets at longer ranges than what the F-35 packs.

Unless you work for Northrup Grumman and would like to share some secrets then there are actually LOTS of questions that cannot be answered.

battleshipagincourt wrote:

The other downside to the JSF comes down to cooling. A more powerful radar means much more heat generated for its size, and a greater demand for coolant. While impressive for its size, the APG-81 still doesn't compare to the Raptor's APG-77... at least in the air to air mode.

Really? It may have certain traits that you can compare with older radars and thus make such guesses at its capability. The thing with technology is that it often advances past these notions and does things that were not possible before through various methods and improved hardware architecture.

battleshipagincourt wrote:

Of course it could detect a Raptor... anything could detect a raptor, provided it was close enough. It's just that an F-22 (with a more powerful radar and lower RCS than most fighters) supposedly could detect an F-35-sized target from ranges of about 20 nautical miles, whereas the latter would have to close within 9 nautical miles to detect an F-22/B-2 sized-target... almost within visual range.

Likewise one F-22 could detect another at about 12 miles, and an F-35 could detect another F-35 at 15 miles.

He is actually talking about the ability of the F-35 to detect the emissions from the AN/APG-77 not the F-22s airframe.

Quote:

Better than the APG-77? In terms of performance, no.

http://www.ausairpower.net/0830-ASPI-Rebuttal-HR.pdf (page 3)

Kopp.

Somehow I just felt that you base your opinions on that ‘source’.

Quote:

For air to air capabilities, there is no question that the APG-77 is significantly better at detecting LO targets at longer ranges than what the F-35 packs.

LOL

And how do you know that? You’re just guessing and presenting it as ‘pure facts’. Funny you.
Now I’ll present you the ultimate truth. The APG-81 can detect Raptor from 500km!

Quote:

The two limiting factors for the JSF's detection capabilities are that a smaller radar will not perform as well as a larger one of the same sophistication. The F-16 is a prime example of this, as its radar capabilities have always been hindered by its physical size, even after an AESA upgrade.

How said the APG-81 has the same level of sophistication as the APG-71?

Quote:

While impressive for its size, the APG-81 still doesn't compare to the Raptor's APG-77... at least in the air to air mode.

Guessing again?

Quote:

Of course it could detect a Raptor... anything could detect a raptor, provided it was close enough. It's just that an F-22 (with a more powerful radar and lower RCS than most fighters) supposedly could detect an F-35-sized target from ranges of about 20 nautical miles, whereas the latter would have to close within 9 nautical miles to detect an F-22/B-2 sized-target... almost within visual range.

And again…?

Quote:

Likewise one F-22 could detect another at about 12 miles, and an F-35 could detect another F-35 at 15 miles.

And again?!

by his analogy then the N1101 is the radar to beat, more power AND bigger dish, since advancement of the receivers software means nothing.

exec wrote:

LOL

And how do you know that? You’re just guessing and presenting it as ‘pure facts’. Funny you.

Obviously you hadn't passed basic algebra, considering your inability to read a graph.

exec wrote:

Now I’ll present you the ultimate truth. The APG-81 can detect Raptor from 500km!

Don't be coy, because you're no good at it. This is probably the most inept statement I have ever heard, especially as you've got a lot to present if you wish to prove this one. One aircraft possessing a more powerful radar and a lower stealth signature will always give it the edge over a larger target with a less powerful radar.

And these ranges aren't guesses... they were calculated on the statistics of estimated radar capabilities and the corresponding aircraft stealth signature. The F-22 furthermore could detect a Eurofighter-sized target at ranges of roughly 110 nautical miles, as compared to the F-35's less impressive 80 NMI figure. And yet SOMEHOW it can detect an aircraft's RCS which is orders of magnitude smaller and at three times further away as a Eurofighter?

Yes I know you were just pulling that number out of your a$$, but you don't get points by just throwing numbers out with absolutely no bearing on reality. If the logic in you mind contradicts that of the real world, then you should see a psychologist.

exec wrote:

How said the APG-81 has the same level of sophistication as the APG-71?

They aren't, although the APG-71 has an effective range of about 460 miles when datalinked with a second F-14. Considering that it predates AESA technology, its capabilities remain quite impressive. Of course a pulse-doppler radar is old technology... I don't know where you're coming from on this.

exec wrote:

Guessing again?

Still can't read graphs again?

exec wrote:

And again…?

I'll take that as a no.

exec wrote:

And again?!

Do you have anything better to do than whine?

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

by his analogy then the N1101 is the radar to beat, more power AND bigger dish, since advancement of the receivers software means nothing.

That is a pulse-doppler radar, therefore I wouldn't expect anywhere near as much from it as I would a similarly-sized AESA design.

battleshipagincourt wrote:

And these ranges aren't guesses... they were calculated on the statistics of estimated radar capabilities and the corresponding aircraft stealth signature. The F-22 furthermore could detect a Eurofighter-sized target at ranges of roughly 110 nautical miles, as compared to the F-35's less impressive 80 NMI figure. And yet SOMEHOW it can detect an aircraft's RCS which is orders of magnitude smaller and at three times further away as a Eurofighter?

The actual RCS of the F-22/35 various aspects and range detection of these radars for different targets is classified information the last time I checked - every figure out there is an estimate - or if you prefer Guestimate.
Any scenerio based on such figures is nothing more than a 'what if' simulation.

You're right... these are all guestimates. I know that... and I know that probably every one of these items has been thoroughly evaluated and debated by experts. They've invested millions/billions into such considerations and estimates.

So the F-35 can't supercruise (at least officially given to the public)... that's not something which just slipped the mind of top aviation experts or designers. It was either a compromise or supersonic cruise just wasn't considered important enough to warrant designing an entirely new engine specifically for the JSF.

So the radar may or may not be as capable as the APG-77... they chose to build a new radar and a new fighter in conjunction so get what they wanted. And odds are that they set their expectations high, so the radar likely does exactly as they want from it. They wanted a greater degree of sensor fusion? That makes sense.

So the F-35 proves to cost much more than they originally projected... it's part of the job of building a new vehicle. They can't always know what will work and what has to be redesigned. That's just the way it is.

battleshipagincourt wrote:

Obviously you hadn't passed basic algebra, considering your inability to read a graph.

Obviously - you still don't get it. Laughing

battleshipagincourt wrote:

This is probably the most inept statement I have ever heard, especially as you've got a lot to present if you wish to prove this one.

That was a 'reductio ad absurdum'. Think about it agai.

battleshipagincourt wrote:

One aircraft possessing a more powerful radar and a lower stealth signature will always give it the edge over a larger target with a less powerful radar.

Enlighten us. What is the power of the APG-81(and APG-77)?

battleshipagincourt wrote:

And these ranges aren't guesses... they were calculated on the statistics of estimated radar capabilities

Calculated from what exactly?

battleshipagincourt wrote:

The F-22 furthermore could detect a Eurofighter-sized target at ranges of roughly 110 nautical miles, as compared to the F-35's less impressive 80 NMI figure.

Oh, really? I suppose you have a good source for that, do you?

battleshipagincourt wrote:

exec wrote:

How said the APG-81 has the same level of sophistication as the APG-71?

They aren't, although the APG-71 has an effective range of about 460 miles when datalinked with a second F-14. Considering that it predates AESA technology, its capabilities remain quite impressive. Of course a pulse-doppler radar is old technology... I don't know where you're coming from on this.

Actually I meant APG-77, but wrote 71 instead. My mistake.

battleshipagincourt wrote:

Still can't read graphs again?

You mean Carlo's graphs? Believe me, I know them very well. Wink

I love those graphs! Great for a laugh, but I did find some education in them (mostly about the logarithmic way in which RCS affects detection range)

exec wrote:

Obviously - you still don't get it. Laughing

Yes I'm sure you're laughing, considering as there's really nothing of substance within your latest response.

Some time doing a google search or visiting wikipedia can offer some very reasonable estimates on certain details not openly available to the public. Guestimates aren't cold-hard facts, but they're a lot more reliable than very unrealistic guesses.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 Raptor vs F-35 Joint Strike Fighter