Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

battleshipagincourt wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

That F-22 or "hapless M1.6" F-35, that has engaged from BVR, is highly unlikely to be run down by anything other than a Mig 31, speedwise.

Is that so? So it's just that one aircraft to worry about? Good, because I'm glad to know none of these would pose any threat, as their speed is well below mach 1.6.

Mig-29/35
SU-35
Chengdu J-10
Eurofighter Typhoon
Dassault Rafale
Saub JAS 39 Gripen
T-50 (estimated > mach 2)
J-20 (estimated > mach 2)

McDonald Duglas F-15
Grumman F-14
Dassault Mirage 2000-5
General Dynamics F-16
MD F-4
Lockheed Martin F-35
Mitsubishi F2
Boeing F-22
The list goes on.

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Actually if you are talking best average speed over distance then the F-35 is going to be the fastest as it optimized to cruise in the transonic speed range. The F-15 and F-22 would be forced to throttle back as they would go through their fuel too quickly. So when ask which is the fastest airplane you also have state under what conditions.

[quote="chrisrt"]

battleshipagincourt wrote:

McDonald Duglas F-15
Grumman F-14
Dassault Mirage 2000-5
General Dynamics F-16
MD F-4
Lockheed Martin F-35
Mitsubishi F2
Boeing F-22
The list goes on.

Note that a given top speed on paper is all well and good - it doesnt mean the jets can go faster at every altitude (or accelerate faster for that matter). To reach top speeds jet normally have to be virtually clean and climb to 35,000+ft altitudes.

If the F-35 is close it can be caught by any of the above if they could keep track of it - and keep up their SA to avoid running straight into a missile fired by another Stealth jet.

for the record:
Boeing F-15
Lockheed Martin F-22
Lockheed Martin F-16

chrisrt wrote:

battleshipagincourt wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

That F-22 or "hapless M1.6" F-35, that has engaged from BVR, is highly unlikely to be run down by anything other than a Mig 31, speedwise.

Is that so? So it's just that one aircraft to worry about? Good, because I'm glad to know none of these would pose any threat, as their speed is well below mach 1.6.

Mig-29/35
SU-35
Chengdu J-10
Eurofighter Typhoon
Dassault Rafale
Saub JAS 39 Gripen
T-50 (estimated > mach 2)
J-20 (estimated > mach 2)

McDonald Duglas F-15
Grumman F-14
Dassault Mirage 2000-5
General Dynamics F-16
MD F-4
Lockheed Martin F-35
Mitsubishi F2
Boeing F-22
The list goes on.

Not wanting to drag this OT into F-35 territory but I felt the need to quickly say the the F-35 might be the worst choice as a target for an opposing fighter jet to try and run down in pusuit. The reason being that if the F-35's weapon system works anywhere like its advertised capabilities the pursuing fighter could very likely find itself flying at a very high speed directly toward an incoming missile.

Yes of course the missile may well be evaded by the pursuing fighter but its now probably lost a good deal of energy and has very likely lost the target and consequently any chances of catching back up with the target. Perhaps a Mig 25 or 31 might have the fuel and speed to re-engage though depending on circumstances such as how far it deviated from the targets track when evading the missile.

Besides, I was under the impression the M1.6 figure so often quoted for the F-35 is actually a target design goal speed that the F-35 must achieve that was set out in the KKP (key performance parameter) list. So in theory it should be able to go faster, at least thats how I see it. My logic is that the F-35 is meant to have excellent acceleration based on what test pilots have said so I can't see it racing up to M1.5 - M1.55 or thereabouts and then suddenly grinding to a halt at M1.6. I'm not saying the F-35 is Mach 2 capable or ever will be but I wouldn't mind a bet that it'd be able to reach say M1.7 or 1.8.
I guess we may know somewhen over the coming year if it can or cannot exceed M1.6 but someone with more knowledge on the test program might say otherwise.

battleshipagincourt wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

That F-22 or "hapless M1.6" F-35, that has engaged from BVR, is highly unlikely to be run down by anything other than a Mig 31, speedwise.

Is that so? So it's just that one aircraft to worry about? Good, because I'm glad to know none of these would pose any threat, as their speed is well below mach 1.6.

Mig-29/35
SU-35
Chengdu J-10
Eurofighter Typhoon
Dassault Rafale
Saub JAS 39 Gripen
T-50 (estimated > mach 2)
J-20 (estimated > mach 2)

You show a remarkable ability to miss the point. If these fighters aren't within WVR of the F-35 when this race to their respective top speeds occurs, then they'll very likely Bingo fuel trying to catch up. Secondly, most of these fighters won't be flying anywhere near M2 when carrying external stores(I.e. F-15s which are theoretically M2.5 aircraft, have never come close to M2 in actual combat(more like M1.4)). This was why the F-35 was optimized to fly at realistic combat speeds(and with a full internal weapons load). Thirdly, unless they're WVR when the engagement starts, then it's highly likely that the F-35 will be outside of their detection range in short order. You still have failed to address the enemy fighters having to dodge inbound missiles while trying to chase the F-35 as well(also increasing the likelihood that the F-35 will break contact).

I thought most of those fighters had IRST. That wouldn’t help in a frontal engagement as well but if it where caught off guard then all is up. Won’t some of those fighters be equipped with an L-band too?

chrisrt wrote:

I thought most of those fighters had IRST. That wouldn’t help in a frontal engagement as well but if it where caught off guard then all is up. Won’t some of those fighters be equipped with an L-band too?

IRST is fine, so long as they're not dodging incoming missiles, in which case regaining track in time to persue(assuming they survived), is by no means a given. Same goes for L band, which by the way won't be of too much help at BVR ranges due to power/aperture limitations involved.

wrightwing wrote:

IRST is fine, so long as they're not dodging incoming missiles

Or flying in non perfect weather conditions, eg cloud filled skies.

golden_eagle wrote:

f22enthusiast wrote:

It's been speculated that the F-15C can go supersonic in a vertical climb, the F-22 can go nearly doublesonic in a vertical climb. Steve Pace

Probably one of the most ridiculous/ludicrous statements I have ever heard...

To each his own...

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Which one is faster - The F-22 or F-15?