Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Raptor_claw wrote:

I don't want to presume to answer for someone else, but I'm pretty sure I know what FB is alluding to...
Almost all F-22 performance data was downgraded to "Unclassified" many years ago (late 2000, if I remember right). BUT, it is still considered technical information/data and is owned by the program (i.e. it did not become public domain data just because it was downgraded). Each public release of such program data must be approved via the program office and must be for a legitimate and compelling reason. I've never seen or heard of this particular piece of data being so cleared and I've never seen it "officially" released.

That is correct. All the performance charts are unclass, but FOUO. I will certainly not be the one to start posting F-22 numbers on a forum, however, regardless of their classification. I like my job too much Smile

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milosh wrote:

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

Quote:

Supercruise engines are build to be as efficient as they can on normal/dry trust.

Kind of like... almost every other kind of engine?

Supercruise engines are designed to work well for long periods of time in the supersonic regime on dry thrust, that's what makes them different.

What mistake I made Doh

You explain well what I meant to say Wink

The mistake you made was in the presumption that the afterburner performance was any less spectacular than the dry thrust.

wrightwing wrote:

milosh wrote:

Prinz_Eugn wrote:

Quote:

Supercruise engines are build to be as efficient as they can on normal/dry trust.

Kind of like... almost every other kind of engine?

Supercruise engines are designed to work well for long periods of time in the supersonic regime on dry thrust, that's what makes them different.

What mistake I made Doh

You explain well what I meant to say Wink

The mistake you made was in the presumption that the afterburner performance was any less spectacular than the dry thrust.

Ok, so what is then F119 trust without AB?

Edit

I saw your earlier post. So without AB total trust is in 50,000lbs class?

milosh wrote:

Ok, so what is then F119 trust without AB?

Edit

I saw your earlier post. So without AB total trust is in 50,000lbs class?

That's the general ballpark, though the actual figure is probably more like 55,000lb +, so basically F-119s produce ~ the same thrust dry as F-100s in max afterburner.

uninstalled static sea level of course.

Since the F22 can reach LUDICROUS SPEED all others pale in comparison...discussion/thread OVER!

It's been speculated that the F-15C can go supersonic in a vertical climb, the F-22 can go nearly doublesonic in a vertical climb. Steve Pace

f22enthusiast wrote:

It's been speculated that the F-15C can go supersonic in a vertical climb, the F-22 can go nearly doublesonic in a vertical climb. Steve Pace

Now THAT's a sweet picture! One second later the Eagle fell off, and the Raptor did a backflip and gunned him! Cool

flyboy22 wrote:

f22enthusiast wrote:

It's been speculated that the F-15C can go supersonic in a vertical climb, the F-22 can go nearly doublesonic in a vertical climb. Steve Pace

Now THAT's a sweet picture! One second later the Eagle fell off, and the Raptor did a backflip and gunned him! Cool

That is one fine picture and one of the best I have seen. It looks like the Raptor is over-rotated a few degrees, but the vortices or vapor of the aircraft are still vertical. This image is right at the moment of the start of the backflip (hence one second)..OR..if it is a few seconds later, is it possible the TVC nozzels are normally pitched up slightly in a vertical climb..ie there is a non-axial relationship between the nose and vertical flight path? Just thinking outside the box as you would consider the lowest drag to occur with a 0 degree (or 90 degree) nose. Thanks.

That is among a series of photos taken of the 433rd WS on the Nellis site. Here are a couple more:

One at level flight:

I can imagine the following transmission...

Gargoyle Lead: "Gargoyle 01 to Gargoyle 02, try and keep up."

Gargoyle 02: "Ughh, not again!"

Sorry off topic

Not sure what year and what air show and what pilot (I think it was Dozer), but this video show some impressive high AoA slow speed pass. Check 1:42 - it seems almost 90 degrees AoA pass!
And a Cobra maneuver at 2:31

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0DWvlgMicY

Really impressive.

After ranting a bit too much in the F-35 forum, I'm going to see if I can really provide some better insight on this particular subject.

I think that supercruise is often mistaken as a means by which an air superiority fighter can go supersonic more efficiently than fighter which use afterburners... that's not exactly the reason it was perfected on the F-22. In reality it's not an efficient use of fuel to travel at great speeds for whatever reason because of air resistance and additional drag which comes because of it. Although an F-22 can make mach 1.6 and sustain that speed longer than an F-15 at full afterburner, its range would diminish for it to always go supersonic... and the speed isn't good for its RAM coating under any conditions.

The primary advantage of supercruise comes down to maintaining stealth... an F-22 in full afterburner will give its IR signature away easily. So they decided to increase the F-22's performance with only dry thrust, as to give it a reasonable chance to escape without having to sacrifice a critical stealth feature. Imagine an F-22 outrunning an F-35 in full afterburner, and that gives you some indication of the flexibility you have with a fighter that can turn and escape without sacrificing stealth. An F-35 pilot would have to balance the pros and cons of trying to hit mach 1.6, or trying and escape at subsonic speeds with Mig-29's trailing behind.

That's the primary reason why supercruise was integrated into the F-22. The advantages wouldn't be as significant for a non-stealth fighter, as they rarely have a need to go supersonic in any event.

battleshipagincourt wrote:

After ranting a bit too much in the F-35 forum, I'm going to see if I can really provide some better insight on this particular subject.

I think that supercruise is often mistaken as a means by which an air superiority fighter can go supersonic more efficiently than fighter which use afterburners... that's not exactly the reason it was perfected on the F-22. In reality it's not an efficient use of fuel to travel at great speeds for whatever reason because of air resistance and additional drag which comes because of it. Although an F-22 can make mach 1.6 and sustain that speed longer than an F-15 at full afterburner, its range would diminish for it to always go supersonic... and the speed isn't good for its RAM coating under any conditions.

It's no mistake that supercruise allows for more efficient supersonic cruising. The fuel consumption in full afterburner is considerably higher than in dry thrust. That's precisely why a supercruiser can maintain supersonic speeds for longer periods of time(naturally subsonic would be even more efficient, but that's not the point here). I'd love to see the source for the supercruising being bad for RAM coating under any conditions(you do realize that part of F-22 routine maintenance is maintaining its RAM materials/paint/seals).

Quote:

The primary advantage of supercruise comes down to maintaining stealth... an F-22 in full afterburner will give its IR signature away easily. So they decided to increase the F-22's performance with only dry thrust, as to give it a reasonable chance to escape without having to sacrifice a critical stealth feature. Imagine an F-22 outrunning an F-35 in full afterburner, and that gives you some indication of the flexibility you have with a fighter that can turn and escape without sacrificing stealth. An F-35 pilot would have to balance the pros and cons of trying to hit mach 1.6, or trying and escape at subsonic speeds with Mig-29's trailing behind.

Advantages of supercruise-
-Force a non-supercruising foe to use afterburners to keep up(and bingo fuel)
-improve weapon kinematics
-cut down on enemy reaction times
-reduce enemy WEZs
-ability to reach time critical targets quickly(while still having some persistence once the destination has been reached.)
-improves combat ceiling performance(i.e. ability to maintain level flight at much higher altitudes, again improving kinematics, sensor range, while reducing enemy WEZs)

wrightwing wrote:

It's no mistake that supercruise allows for more efficient supersonic cruising. The fuel consumption in full afterburner is considerably higher than in dry thrust. That's precisely why a supercruiser can maintain supersonic speeds for longer periods of time(naturally subsonic would be even more efficient, but that's not the point here).

Well I saw a comment being that it was more fuel efficient to have supercruise than something along the lines of the F-35. I have to concede that the F135 turbofan engine is ultimately more fuel efficient than the F119 when it comes to dry thrust. With only a 1:10 bypass ratio, the F119 is well suited to a high-performance fighter. The sacrifice to better fuel efficiency is that an F-22 cruising on dry thrust alone can trump an F-35 in full afterburner... and that's just sad.

wrightwing wrote:

I'd love to see the source for the supercruising being bad for RAM coating under any conditions(you do realize that part of F-22 routine maintenance is maintaining its RAM materials/paint/seals).

That should be pretty self-evident. An F-22's RAM is very delicate, so cruising at 400 knots would result in much less abrasion upon the material than if the plane were moving at supersonic speeds. That's not to say it must be reapplied after every mission, but it's certainly not going to endure a four-hour mission if the Raptor's constantly in supercruise.

wrightwing wrote:

Advantages of supercruise-
-Force a non-supercruising foe to use afterburners to keep up(and bingo fuel)
-improve weapon kinematics
-cut down on enemy reaction times
-reduce enemy WEZs

All these can be achieved without supercruise, just to let you know. Even if afterburners are inefficient, it's not a feature for constant use. An F-22 can afford to light its afterburners and accelerate to mach 2 for weapon kinematics when confronting an enemy force, or it can turn about and head for home if being pursued.

Although supercruise is a nice feature for virtually any fighter, it's especially valuable for a stealth fighter because it gives comparable performance in dry thrust without sacrificing its low IR signature.

f22enthusiast wrote:

It's been speculated that the F-15C can go supersonic in a vertical climb, the F-22 can go nearly doublesonic in a vertical climb. Steve Pace

Probably one of the most ridiculous/ludicrous statements I have ever heard...

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Which one is faster - The F-22 or F-15?