Forum: Air Power

The problem for RoK is NK artillery, and that Seoul is within range of it. If a war breaks out, Seoul is going to get absolutely hammered day and night for the duration. And those artillery pieces are protected within bunkers tunneled into the mountains. Very hard problem to solve.

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If north and south korea go at it, between thier f-15 and f-16 and f-4 and f-5 aircraft they sould come out on top take out the mig-29 at long range the mig -21 sould be alot easier to deal with Very Happy

velocity264c wrote:

munny wrote:

Title was a shameless attempt to mask the fact this is not really an F-35 related thread, I don't read other forums that much.

So it looks like things could escalate with north and south over the coming weeks/months...

North Korea is protected by 350-odd sa-2's, sa-3's and sa-5's and thousands of manpads. 390 fighters, 30 of them Mig-29's, the rest mig-21's (mainly)...some bisons, mig-23's and mig-17's.

South Korea has similar SAM numbers, possibly with patriots in the mix. 470 fighters including their 40 shiney F-15k's, lots of f-5's and f-16's and some f-4's.

Wonder how this will play out.

Do not worry about MANPADS or SA-2s, they can be defeated easily. SA-3s and SA-5s, unknown. Lets just hope that South Korea can at least defend itself right now. F-35s would be of some help. Tehn again, theres already many US Military Posts/Bases/Camps in SK, they can interfere since they are there. I guess its time to prepare for WWIII and time for the F-22s and F-35s to go help out an ally. Japan isn't too far away with F-15Js though but agin, need to see what will happen. MIM-104 Patriots can get some of the job done but to rely too much on them, can be bad.

to the first quote...350 Sams? What propoganda are you reading, also the bison? That would assume they have hmcs and adders?

to the other guy...dont worry about manpads and SA-2's????? are you crazy? If you get shot at by a manpad do you know what the indications are in a viper? nothing. Do you know how far an SA-18 can reach up and touch you? pretty damn high. There is nothing easy about being shot at by an SA-2 in a viper.....Don't get me wrong USAF Vipers in korea would be AWESOME!!, however it would not be a cake walk..(i don't know what a cake walk is)

With regards to 21st century operating USAF Vipers not having indications of a simple manpad launch, with all due respect and as hard as this is to say... but that is very unfortunate and if anything else, it's an apparent indication of the currently flawed DoD and USAF planning. imho.

At least 5, maybe 6, or 7 Air Forces flying Vipers by my count, are equipped with modern MAWS/MLD.

The USAF has plenty of cash, and more budget than any world Air Force flying. It is about priorities, tactics and strategy. When one continues to put grand scheme, far-out Mil Ind Complex programs first and current operating capabilites 2nd (or 3rd), then we have some serious issues to deal with going forward in the the fast changing environment.

Absolutely, there should be some near-term piecemeal F-16 upgrade program, including these basic self-protection updates, seeing that USAF is going to need Vipers longer than expected. But DoD/USAF/Congress also need to calculate and comprehend that such unfunded, significant upgrades will have to come out of some USAF procurement budget at the same time USAF budgets will be decreasing in buying power, year over year.

Perhaps as a starting point and a friendly gesture to ally SK in this case; LM (or equiv) could make an expedient FMS of AN/AAR-56 MAWS integrated into a Terma pylon config for KF-16C/D?

"Time to cut fat and build muscle" - NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. Respects-

Three reasons that will not happen:

1. Why reinvent the wheel. The Terma pylons already have an option for a MAWS in the PIDS+ version. It's pylons not only have MAWS, but also dispensers and jammers.

http://www.terma.com/index.dsp?area=25#
http://www.terma.com/multimedia/pdf_for_screen.pdf
http://www.terma.com/multimedia/4612_pb ... screen.pdf

2. The situation does not call for the accuracy and detail that would require the AAR-56. The added cost. complexity, size, and weight required for the AAR-56 units would be a severe drag penalty.

3. It would take too long to develop, test, and deploy an AAR-56 based system.

Thanks for response, Spud. Now you're thinking... That was the precise point only - to consider a Terma-based expedited solution to the 'nothing' part of the discussed USAF F-16 and perhaps KC-16's MANPAD/SHORAD launch warning indications? And yes, I suppose I'm a Terma pylon fan if you could guess Smile

As for the for either the 3xMAW apertures + ECM config per pylon, or 3xMAW + flare expendables config, (or one each) for a potential full 360deg spherical coverage and visuals displayed to JHMCS... yes, it can accommodate at least 2 different existing MAWS: AN/AAR-60(V)2 MILDS-F (UV based) and Raytheon/Elisra PAWS-2 (IR based w/ day/night panoramic view upgrade). I only mentioned LM's AAR-56 since it should be the best system of the three as you noted.

As far as costs go, well it's actually claimed by LM to be, yep, affordable... so perhaps the 'added cost' in the pod mount is perfectly justified cost value-wise, considering not every aircraft in the fleet would need one anyway?

AAR-56's Weight and size might be an issue, although I couldn't find specs on apertures or processors. The MILDS-F is pretty big at 260lbs total weight however, so maybe AAR-56 could physically fit? If anything, it wouldn't be bad marketing for LM imho to offer it (on a specially modified Terma?), for top-tier partners (and USAF Upgrades) deserving the best! The crazy thing too is that some of these new block 60s (and equivalent upgrades) have the high speed databus and big computer memory to possibly make use of this day/night 360 panoramic view mode.. can't complain with that. (especially if it can cue an ATDIRCM).

Now when you said the situation does not call for the accuracy and detail that would require an AAR-56, I have to admit that threw me off a bit. Are you saying then, that the situation in such a densely manpad packed space does not, or would not call for the accuracy and detail which would require an EO DAS as well?

Perhaps then in the short term, scratch the AAR-56 idea and consider fast-tracking the PAWS-2 w/SAPIR panoramic view mode, for testing, training and integration into USAF fleet (+ partners making the request)... imho.

Note, for constructive criticism purposes only. Maybe consider it on the F-16-equivalent level of the call to Up-Armor HMMWV. God speed. Salute

The current MAWS that the PIDS+ pylon have just provide a bearing to the threat. The AAR-56 produces a video image that would have to have additional hardware & software developed to interpret it. This is where the added cost & weight (besides the added weight of the detectors themselves) comes in.

As far as the need for accuracy & detail, I see a possible SK vs NK scenario involving more mid-high altitude precision bombing far outside the MADPADS threat. The level of accuracy that current MAWS (on PIDS+) is adequate to provide bearing to the threat, thereby it does not need to be changed (IMHO).

Besides, in the interest of rapid deployment, the current PIDS+ config will do nicely.

btw, PIDS+ provides a 360 view in the lower hemisphere only as no sensors point up.

Perhaps you're right, i.e., for a basic AAR-60 or AAR-57 type 'bearing' capability being sufficient as an entry level order (be it USAF or ROK, etc). They key point being stressed in the first comment, was thus more of a rapid reaction 'show of resolve' and show of intent to adjust requirements, etc, under critical situations. Just the intent to order or supply and initial order placed was the point I guess. The delivery and then integration and IOC would of course happen some months (1yr+) later, outside of any immeidate box.

Never too late to keep modern equipment upgrades in the pipe line though. So you don't have to react and scramble later when needing something you didn't anticipate, probably spending out the nose in the process too.

As far as the ECIPS+PIDS+ 'Full' spherical 360 coverage... you got me there, as I was mistakenly combining the more complete spherical 360 coverage in particular, via F-16 'skin-integrated' PAWS-2/SAPIR, or theoretical AAR-56 MWS configuration into that comment.

That being said, a PAWS2/SAPIR PIDS+ integration would still give excellent near-spherical 360 day/night view + missile warning SA and provide superior warning of threat distance in addition to bearing, as well as improved warning to missiles in a no-plume terminal approach. Not EO DAS, but still a huge SA advantage for legacy airframes in-line for upgrades. Just add a cued ATDIRCM to the suite... and then the upgrade priorities are really starting to take shape positively, planning ahead for the decade. imho.

BTW, on the topic of 'air power' tactics relative to upgrading tacair airframes in potential modern combat zones, I'd further be interested if yes, ALQ-218 could be integrated into an ECIPS+ pylon for F-16 use, as part of a AN/ALQ-213(V) EWMS managed EW suite?? That could give some pretty exceptional electronic SA, no?

Unfortunately you run into space limitations when you go with as large a system as the ALQ-218.

Assuming that they are doing A2G, they could fit a TER on the pylon and load it with bomb/jammer/bomb config or a MER with SDB/jammer loaded.

You could fit a ALQ-119, ALQ-131, AN/ALQ-184, non-USA sets (like EL/L-8212), DIRM sets like TADIRCM (IOC 2015) (here & here & here).

The benefits of mix & match and all available now.

Sorry folks, but I'm afraid this one has run its course. Folks are discussing classified equipment and/or tactics, and that's a BIG no-no here. When I have some time, I may go back and do some "cut & paste" to make this thread a player again. Til then, please watch what you're posting on the site. Big Brother is real and he IS watching!

Forum: Air Power

Ongoing Korean Crisis