Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Beyond the ambiguity of airshow performance, I would think that the BVR scenario would be more interesting. I can't see the fight going straight into WVR all that often. Also, even if the BVR shots do fail, shorter range NEZ Meteor/AMRAAM shots would probably seal the deal before the merge.

One question that I have on the Eurofighter is how well it can supercruise. I know some claimed and demonstrated speed numbers, but I haven't heard anything about endurance. As Meteor is constantly under its own power, I don't think supercruising would aid it much, however, it could slightly reduce the effective range of the F-22's AMRAAM, perhaps letting the EF survive the initial volley (if the F-22 were not detected before this) and fighting back.

In WVR, I think the planes' agilities are probably close enough so that it doesn't really matter once HOBS missiles come into play.

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shep1978 wrote:

Point taken but it's unknown if the Typhoon displays are flown to maximun performance. It too may not be displaying to the maximun of its abilty. And for that matter we also don't know that the Raptor is not perfoming at its max at airshows either.

I'll have to refer you to my previous post on these.

shep1978 wrote:

I don't doubt that all US fighters did get their asses handed to them in BFM with Raptors either, but the likes of Typhoon (and Rafale) are more agile than US teen fighters so it may not be quite the same. I heard the Rafales for example (which are similar to Typhoon in abilty) where no easy opponent for the Raptors when they met not to long ago and were said to be a much harder opponent to fight than 'teen' fighters are.

I do agree that the Typhoon and Rafale do have some performance advantages over legacy teen series fighters in certain areas. It would be a failure for BAE Systems and Dassault if the Typhoon or Rafale couldn't outperform the legacy fighters in some performance areas.

I don't know about the Typhoon but no doubt with the Rafale you're talking about Iron Falcon.

Do you really believe what others said on the other forums Shep? Have faith my friend.

exorcet wrote:

As Meteor is constantly under its own power, I don't think supercruising would aid it much

Disagree. Putting more energy in a missile during launch is 99% a good thing. One of the things the F-22 has in spades. Because of the energy it can impart on its AMRAAMs shots due to the F-22's kinematics, makes those AMRAAMs even more effective (range being one of them). Since the Meteor is a longer ranged weapon, if the F-22 carried those missiles, can you imagine the energy imparted onto it?

exorcet wrote:

however, it could slightly reduce the effective range of the F-22's AMRAAM, perhaps letting the EF survive the initial volley (if the F-22 were not detected before this) and fighting back.

Tactics, tactics, tactics...to include SA. Another thing the Raptor has in spades (i.e. dictating the engagement).

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

Do you really believe what others said on the other forums Shep? Have faith my friend.

And what is wrong with what has been stated? 6 DACT missions 5 draws, one victory for the F-22. That's confirmed by AdA pilots who participated in the exercise and hasn't been demented by the Americans, nor does it contradict with what the Americans stated (F-22 remained undefeated).

Since F22 gunned down rafale during ATLC and rafale outmaneouvered EF2000, what can we conclude?

b-man wrote:

Since F22 gunned down rafale during ATLC and rafale outmaneouvered EF2000, what can we conclude?

..EF2k pilot's were sleeping .

b-man wrote:

Since F22 gunned down rafale during ATLC and rafale outmaneouvered EF2000, what can we conclude?

You can't conclude anything from that.

famine wrote:

b-man wrote:

Since F22 gunned down rafale during ATLC and rafale outmaneouvered EF2000, what can we conclude?

You can't conclude anything from that.

Agreed. One you have to put the Rafale up against an F-22, it probably already happened, thats beyond me right now, but still favors the F-22 depending on situation, and situational awareness.

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

exorcet wrote:

As Meteor is constantly under its own power, I don't think supercruising would aid it much

Disagree. Putting more energy in a missile during launch is 99% a good thing. One of the things the F-22 has in spades. Because of the energy it can impart on its AMRAAMs shots due to the F-22's kinematics, makes those AMRAAMs even more effective (range being one of them). Since the Meteor is a longer ranged weapon, if the F-22 carried those missiles, can you imagine the energy imparted onto it?

exorcet wrote:

however, it could slightly reduce the effective range of the F-22's AMRAAM, perhaps letting the EF survive the initial volley (if the F-22 were not detected before this) and fighting back.

Tactics, tactics, tactics...to include SA. Another thing the Raptor has in spades (i.e. dictating the engagement).

Well, you start to get diminishing returns when max missile range increases (unless the plane is going hypersonic and the missile can reach Mach 10). And if the Meteor is designed to authorize launch only when it can remain under power the whole way, additional launch velocity will have little benefit.

I’m sure Eurofighter pilots have tactics too, even if their plane is inferior on paper. They should also have the larger NEZ’s by far. Stealth is huge, huge advantage for the F-22, but it can’t be guaranteed with certainty.

exorcet wrote:

Well, you start to get diminishing returns when max missile range increases (unless the plane is going hypersonic and the missile can reach Mach 10). And if the Meteor is designed to authorize launch only when it can remain under power the whole way, additional launch velocity will have little benefit.

I certainly don't agree, but you're free to believe it.

exorcet wrote:

I’m sure Eurofighter pilots have tactics too, even if their plane is inferior on paper. They should also have the larger NEZ’s by far. Stealth is huge, huge advantage for the F-22, but it can’t be guaranteed with certainty.

Yeah, tactics which wouldn't be much different than what's currently employed by existing 4th Gen jets.

By itself, stealth is huge. But combine it with SA achieved by the advanced integrated avionics and sensors (which doesn't betray the F-22's location) and now you have synergistic enablers that isn't available or seen on any other 4th Gen fighter.

Also, the F-22 dudes (particularly the 422nd and 433rd guys) have been working on the equipment and perfecting tactics for years now...

This isn't about belief. If I'm wrong, I prefer to be corrected, not move on with things unsettled.

A missile's energy is limited by its maximum speed and altitude. The Meteor should reach the former rather quickly, and maintain it for a while. This energy would be Force*distance, with the launch energy being .5*mass*(Velocity of plane)^2. launch energy/motor energy decreases as motor energy increases. Also, if the Meteor is supposed to be launched such that it will reach the target with fuel onboard, launch energy becomes nearly irrelevant. The effect motor energy will be infinite.

Potential energy not considered since we're talking about supercruise (speed).

The F-22's active sensors aren't immune to detection. They will only keep the chances of it being detected low. How low is unknown. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the EF-2000's SA is beyond that of your average 4th gen. It too is sensor fused , can operate through datalinks with other weapons, and has its own passive sensors. It might be evading radar like the F-22, but it can also see without giving itself away, potentially.

Typhoon has an active MAWS, something that I suspect the Raptors AN/ALR-94 would love to have around. It also has a mech scan radar that despite what Eurofighter might claim is probably not very or not at all LPI

I have to agree with exorcet on both cases.
Speed won't mean to much for the Meteors range as it does to the AMRAAMs range. There will be a gain in range, but it will be more marginal than it's the case for the AMRAAM.

The Typhoon has been designed with a lot of technologies and capabilities in mind which didn't exist at the time the teens were designed. And these are similar technologies and capabilities as found on the F-22, not exactly the same in every single area, but similar in many.

The Typhoon was designed with the recognition of supersonic performance for BVR fighting in mind, as well as subsonic instantaneous turning performance with a identified proliferation of HOBS missiles vs sustained performance, required for tail chasing as it was the case for the teens.

Typhoon's MMI is not less sophisticated than that of the F-22, its avionics are equally well integrated, the aircraft offers a broad range of sensors, NCW capabilities as well as sensor/data fusion.

What puts the Raptor ahead is first and foremost its VLO design and unrivalled supercruise performance. That's not to say that the aircraft hasn't more to offer than that, but that's where the F-22 really scores and what makes it the best AA fighting machine out there.

Scorpion82 wrote:

I have to agree with exorcet on both cases.
Speed won't mean to much for the Meteors range as it does to the AMRAAMs range. There will be a gain in range, but it will be more marginal than it's the case for the AMRAAM.

This is all semantics. The fact of the matter is that even with a ramjet, it's still better to have a high speed launch, so that the motor spends less time accelerating the missile, than maintaining cruise speeds, for maximum range/NEZ.

Quote:

Typhoon's MMI is not less sophisticated than that of the F-22, its avionics are equally well integrated, the aircraft offers a broad range of sensors, NCW capabilities as well as sensor/data fusion.

I'd love to know how you can state this unequivocally, but even if it is the case, the sensors are still not as capable as the F-22's. This still means less situational awareness comparitively speaking.

Scorpion82 wrote:

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

Do you really believe what others said on the other forums Shep? Have faith my friend.

And what is wrong with what has been stated? 6 DACT missions 5 draws, one victory for the F-22. That's confirmed by AdA pilots who participated in the exercise and hasn't been demented by the Americans, nor does it contradict with what the Americans stated (F-22 remained undefeated).

There were several accounts from the French- 1/5 and 2/4. The fact that the US didn't comment on that isn't a confirmation of its accuracy, especially considering the USAF claims.

wrightwing wrote:

I'd love to know how you can state this unequivocally, but even if it is the case, the sensors are still not as capable as the F-22's. This still means less situational awareness comparitively speaking.

What headaches does it cause for you? I don't say that everything is equal, but there are a lot of similarities, much more than the average observer is willed to acknowledge. How much more capable is the AN/ALR-94 vs. DASS ESM? There is no IR component either in the F-22's sensor suite, the radar will likely offer a superior performance. At the end it's not so much about Typhoon must match the Raptor in every single area, but that the aircraft is not the teen fighter many people try to paint it as.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 versus Eurofighter Typhoon