Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Um,m you do know that EVERY AAM today has an INS... it's called an Internal Navigation System.

Your grasping at straws trying to disprove what is obviously right in front of you.

How about providing some of your "public" information to back up your claims?

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That's "Inertial" not "Internal"- minor nitpick.

And while I'm being that guy... Madrat, you don't say "it has a GPS" since that would be "it has a Global Positioning System" (satellites and all?). You're thinking of a GPS-aided guidance system or a GPS receiver.

http://www.navair.navy.mil/nawcwd/nawcw ... winder.htm

Quote:

AIM-9X is preparing to begin production of the Block II missile, which will further enhance warfighting capabilities with a new fuze offering a data link and lock-on-after-launch capability.

https://www.aiaa.org/pdf/industry/prese ... /Heely.pdf
Check out page 10, for more clarification on Spudman's graphic of Today/Tomorrow

http://www.aiaa.org/pdf/industry/presen ... tation.pdf

Check out page 12

http://investor.raytheon.com/phoenix.zh ... highlight=

Quote:

The AIM-9X Block II adds a lock-on-after-launch capability, redesigned fuze and a one-way forward-quarter datalink capability to the AIM-9X Block I.

http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?t ... Sidewinder

Quote:

The AIM-9X Block II adds lock-on-after launch capability and a one-way forward quarter datalink capability. This enables the missile to be fired first and then directed to its target afterwards by an aircraft with the proper equipment for 360 degree engagements, such as the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II and Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.

Grasping at straws is reading meaning into a message from the marketeer that isn't explicitly promised. The graphic wants you to believe something - but is unwilling to say straight out - by hiding behind an obvious convoluted message. That's classic.

The problem with your assumption is that you have no access to the audio that was given along with the presentation. Not only that, but you keep calling them marketerrs when they are not.

Once again, I notice that you did not provide any credible source that claims the AIM-9X Blk2 will not have these features.

Everyone is citing the same public resources, your argument made absolutely no sense in the last post. I am not responsible for teaching you reading comprehension nor how the politics of this high stakes business works. A few around here mistake potential future features with ones promised when the missile gets delivered.

Madrat, are you serious?

INS is now pretty much a backup to if you lose GPS coverage. GPS is more accurate 99.9% of the time.

Block II has LOAL, no question. Third-party targeting is in the works if not already implemented. You are assuming things that aren't explicitly spelled out don't exist, which isn't exactly a sound assumption. As Spudman pointed out, we're looking at a presentation that is meant to be accompanied by considerable vocal information, so who knows what was in the presenter's notes they didn't stick on the slide?

Seriously, can you find anything that says that Block II WON'T have these features if not now, soon?

I do believe they will have them in the future, they just are not explicitly promised with block II.

madrat wrote:

I do believe they will have them in the future, they just are not explicitly promised with block II.

Not explicitly promised? Every single link says LOAL for Block II. I'm not sure how much more explicit they can get. I'd say the onus is on you to provide a single link saying that LOAL won't be a feature.

I've never said it didn't have a form of LOAL. It just won't be the LOAL that people are assuming it to be. I'm not sure where you think I said it won't be a form of LOAL. In order to be effective in a complete spherical raduii around the shooter it needs more pieces to the puzzle; these are what are not explicitly promised.

What piece is missing and what do you base this on?

madrat wrote:

I've never said it didn't have a form of LOAL. It just won't be the LOAL that people are assuming it to be. I'm not sure where you think I said it won't be a form of LOAL. In order to be effective in a complete spherical raduii around the shooter it needs more pieces to the puzzle; these are what are not explicitly promised.

A missile is either lock on after launch, or it isn't. Remember, this is an IR weapon, so it's not going to need input from the launch aircraft till it impacts the target. Additionally, in a multi-ship formation with 3rd party targeting, the launch aircraft doesn't have to be the one sending data-linked info to the missile.

[quote="wrightwing"]

A missile is either lock on after launch, or it isn't. Remember, this is an IR weapon, so it's not going to need input from the launch aircraft till it impacts the target. quote]

I don't understand this comment. Either it leaves the rail with a valid track or it needs course updates from somewhere. what am i missing?

Let's take a look at Madrat's initial statement and see where he got it wrong:

madrat wrote:

AIM-9X block II will not have true LOAL, that is it cannot target anything from off board data.

That has proven to be a false statement as numerous sources state Blk2 as having 3rd Party Targeting & Cuing.

madrat wrote:

The reason it is forward quarter is because it requires information from the radar to guide it out to the target.

Another misleading statement as the Aim-9x (Blk2 for LOAL shots) can use ANY sensor to provide a target coordinate be it radar, IRST, EODAS, or RwR.

madrat wrote:

The block II is basically a catch up stage to the current ASRAAM, allowing the missile to be fired outside of WVR information.

Here is the real interesting one. As I looked up info on the ASRAAM a big thing jumped out at me, it has no datalink. It's ability to prosecute a LOAL shot is based on a predictive seeker, not post-shot target updates.

In a way his statement is correct as Blk2 will finally give the Aim-9X LOAL. But, Blk2 clearly surpasses the ASRAAM's target discrimination ability. With the addition of the Blk2's GPS enhanced INS it will be able to discriminate friend from foe in a dogfight. This added to the F-35's ability to track every fighter and missile in the WVR environment clearly puts it above the ASRAAM.

By the way, these first two links are from the MBDA website and they make NO mention of a datalink.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/r ... page_id=23
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/d ... e_2010.pdf
http://defense-update.com/newscast/0309 ... 30309.html

madrat wrote:

ASRAAM can be wholly cued by JHMCS, giving it some edge. The true LOAL capability will truly allow engaging rear aspect targets, utilize off board information, use an internal INS, and use two-way data links. I believe this 360º capability is tentatively destined for testing by 2015 and perhaps be introduced in a block III.

Again, ASRAAM has no datalink and as others have stated, the 9X can take full advantage of a JHMCS (within it's FOV) and Blk2 will be able to be used anywhere the pilot can point.

So, in actuality the Aim-9X Blk2 will have a far superior LOAL mode than the ASRAAM with it's Data-link, lofting mode, and GPS based INS.

madrat wrote:

Grasping at straws is reading meaning into a message from the marketeer that isn't explicitly promised. The graphic wants you to believe something - but is unwilling to say straight out - by hiding behind an obvious convoluted message. That's classic.

Wow, i've just skimmed through this debate and you're actually accusing someone else of grasping at straws? Just admit you got it wrong and move on as this is embarrassing for you.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

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