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cywolf32
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Posted: Aug 07, 2010 - 02:33 PM
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Forum Veteran

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The inlet gap is first and foremost designed to prevent turbulent air from entering the intake. Ram air for cooling is a secondary benefit as was stated. Just as the fuel is used to cool engine oil (fuel/oil heat exchanger) and preheat the fuel for better combustion, the secondary effect here is also used to an advantage since the primary use for fuel is obvious.
Good example of boundary layer science here.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news ... -DFRC.html
FYI, the boundary layer gap of the F-16 inlet is set at precisely 3.3 inches for optimal Mach 2 performance. And it does not matter if an inlet is moveable or fixed. The boundary layer issue still exists. The F-22 inlet is fixed. The F-35 approach to dealing with this issue is truely remarkable in that it is not only simpler and cheaper to build, it also offers better performance over older designs. Hope this helps answer your question!! |
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Sponsor
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Posted: Jun 20, 2013 - 6:12 AM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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Rapec
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Posted: Aug 08, 2010 - 02:37 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: Jun 15, 2007 - 11:13 AM
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That_Engine_Guy wrote:
The F-22 may have a fixed inlet, but has 'slots and slats' to divert airflow, where other 'traditional fighters' (not mentioned specifically on their 2 whole aircraft list) have 'moving parts'
Ok, now I seems to understand - thanks.
cywolf32 wrote:
The F-35 approach to dealing with this issue is truely remarkable in that it is not only simpler and cheaper to build, it also offers better performance over older designs
No doubt that DSI is much cheaper and simpler, but what kind of better performance does it offer? Lower overall drag of the airframe, some advantages in terms of pressure recovery ratio?
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F16VIPER
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Posted: Aug 08, 2010 - 03:51 PM
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Senior member

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Quote:
FYI, the boundary layer gap of the F-16 inlet is set at precisely 3.3 inches for optimal Mach 2 performance. And it does not matter if an inlet is moveable or fixed.
What is the reason the gap is designed for Mach 2 performance if the plane very rarely operates at that speed. Wouldn't it be designed for the speed at which it is normally operated at.
F16VIPER |
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That_Engine_Guy
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Posted: Aug 08, 2010 - 04:34 PM
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F16VIPER wrote:
Quote:
FYI, the boundary layer gap of the F-16 inlet is set at precisely 3.3 inches for optimal Mach 2 performance. And it does not matter if an inlet is moveable or fixed.
What is the reason the gap is designed for Mach 2 performance if the plane very rarely operates at that speed. Wouldn't it be designed for the speed at which it is normally operated at.
Because that is where it the inlet would need to deal with the fastest air. If the inlet were designed for MACH 1.5; above MACH 1.5 the inlet would begin to choke and the engine would loose power due to low airflow or inlet distortion.
By designing the F-16's inlet for MACH 2, it continues to improve performance as it approaches MACH 2. Basically GD designed the F-16 inlet to deal with the 'worse case' speed.
Rapec wrote:
No doubt that DSI is much cheaper and simpler, but what kind of better performance does it offer? Lower overall drag of the airframe, some advantages in terms of pressure recovery ratio?
Here is LM's patent, lots of cool info there (only 18 pages long!)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5749542.pdf
LM wrote:
In particular, the present invention does not require a boundary layer diverter, a side or splitter plate, a boundary layer bleed system or an overboard bypass system. Furthermore, the present invention has no moving parts. This reduction in complexity reduces the tactical fighter aircraft's empty weight, production cost, and maintenance support requirements. These savings are estimated to be 250 pounds per aircraft, $225,000 per aircraft, and 0.03 maintenance man hours per flight hour, respectively.
AAIA members have also studied the DSI's performance;
http://pdf.aiaa.org/preview/2010/CDRead ... 10_481.pdf
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics wrote:
Flow Field and Performance Analysis of an Integrated Diverterless Supersonic Inlet. In this paper the computed flow and performance characteristics at low angle-of-attack (AOA) of an integrated Diverterless Supersonic Inlet (DSI) are presented near its design mass flow rate. The subsonic characteristics are evaluated at M?=0.8 while the supersonic characteristics are evaluated at M?=1.7, which is near the design Mach number for the intake. In addition to the external flow features, the internal intake duct flow behavior is also evaluated. The results of this study indicate effective boundary layer diversion due to the “bump” compression surface in both subsonic and supersonic regimes. At M?=1.7, the shockwave structure (oblique / normal shockwave) on the “bump” compression surface and intake inlet is satisfactory at intake design mass flow ratio. The intake duct flow behavior at subsonic and supersonic conditions is generally consistent with “Y” shaped intake duct of the present configuration. The secondary flow structure inside the duct has been effectively captured by present computations. The computed intake total pressure recovery at M?=1.7 exhibits higher-then-conventional behavior at low mass flow ratios, which is attributed to inlet design feature. Overall computed subsonic and supersonic total pressure recovery characteristics are satisfactory under the evaluated conditions and are also in agreement with wind tunnel test data.
Keep 'em flyin'
TEG |
_________________ [Airplanes are] near perfect, all they lack is the ability to forgive.
— Richard Collins
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cywolf32
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Posted: Aug 08, 2010 - 04:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005 - 12:04 PM
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| Thanks TEG!! You saved me alot of trouble in answering. Very good info BTW. |
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SpudmanWP
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Posted: Aug 08, 2010 - 06:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 12, 2006 - 08:18 PM
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TEG, a new record... as TRIPLE post  |
_________________ "The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Rapec
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Posted: Aug 08, 2010 - 06:56 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: Jun 15, 2007 - 11:13 AM
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Literally triple thanks TEG for DSI info, now it's time to read (and maybe comprehend ).
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Orangeburst
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Posted: Aug 09, 2010 - 02:07 AM
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What gets me is TEG said the divertless intake is a LM patent! What about the Chicom upgraded J-10 (?) with such? WTO filing anyone? Nah, just add another one to the endless list and pussycrats in DC. Ah well, if our past prez wants to sell missile guidance capability to them, let them steal W88 warhead designs, F-35 designs, and on and on, this is just a "bump" in the road. Ah, I made a pun!
Sorry for the polispin, but the flagrancy and ineptitiude HAS TO STOP.
TEG, back to tech. I spent years selling centrifugal compressed air tech and always had to concern myself with choke and surge during review. How does DSI deal with surge (or lack of air) because the intake cannot physically open?
Thanks..you are the Engine Guy. Mes hava feelin mes gonna look stupid. |
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munny
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Posted: Aug 09, 2010 - 05:50 AM
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cywolf32 wrote:
The F-35 approach to dealing with this issue is truely remarkable in that it is not only simpler and cheaper to build, it also offers better performance over older designs. Hope this helps answer your question!!
Is the "bump" used on the F-35 the reason for the "supposed" 30 degree RCS issue constantly mentioned by apa fanboiz?
I alway thought its purpose was for airflow control, but found it odd seeing a large rounded surface on the front aspect of the aircraft.
Fascinating thread by the way....the reason I enjoy these forums. |
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cywolf32
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Posted: Aug 09, 2010 - 12:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005 - 12:04 PM
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Actually,
APA considers the F-35 inlet as superior to its X-35 cousin. Its issues regarding F-35 RCS have to do with side, lower, and rear RCS.
More info here:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-01. ... TocId93619
And yes, you are correct that the bump is used for boundary layer control. |
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That_Engine_Guy
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Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 01:20 AM
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Orangeburst wrote:
TEG, back to tech. I spent years selling centrifugal compressed air tech and always had to concern myself with choke and surge during review. How does DSI deal with surge (or lack of air) because the intake cannot physically open?
The motor (F135) will have to deal with surge/choke by it's self; much like the F-16's inlet. The only feature in the Viper inlet that isn't 'fixed' is the small rubber inlet seal around the engine inlet. I imagine with enough pressure it could 'burp' a little air past the engine. (but very little)
The F100/F110s deal with surge by releasing pressure in the compressors. By quickly setting IGVs/CIVVs etc to full axial, and opening the nozzle at the same time nozzle position is opened and fuel flow is cut momentarily , the surge should pass through the engine. I've seen DEEC record 'stall/stagnation' events that the pilot never 'felt' nor saw on the engine gauges. During a 'choke' the engine would likewise accommodate the drop in PS2 (Inlet Pressure) much without the knowledge of the pilot. The DEEC of the F100 is 'full-authority' and will limit pilot requests outside normal parameters or envelope operations.
I figure the small compressors you're talking of didn't have variable compression or control logic anywhere close to that of a flying aviation gas-turbine w/'burner.
For example; see diagrams below of the PW1128 version of the F100. This engine is what became the F100-PW-220.
(Public info from NASA reports)
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/ ... H-1247.pdf
We won't delve into math or programming, that isn't public...
Couple this tech with the 'cool uber-modern logic and prognostics' of the F135's twin-FADECs; surge/stalls should be VERY rare!
Keep 'em flyin'
TEG |
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_________________ [Airplanes are] near perfect, all they lack is the ability to forgive.
— Richard Collins
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Orangeburst
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Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 04:06 AM
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TEG, you trying to give me a brain hemorragh? Thanks, that is more info than I can digest, although I dont know the sensor index for the P&ID (process and instrumention) diagrams you posted. Not sure I would understand anyways.
When you mentioned IGV's, I assume these are Inlet guide vanes? So there are internal moving parts to the inlet?
In the air compressor world, you would occasionally see 5,000-10,000 HP electric motor driven CENTAC units (not sure how lbs/thrust equates to HP). These would typically be 3-stage units for about 125 psig and up to about 200+ psig with an addional stage or two, IIRC. This HP was more directly related to mass flow rather then high DP. If I understand correctly, aviation engines are 7-stage on the compression side. What kind of discharge pressures are we talking? In my world, I know that the IP is critical to the discharge pressure due to pressure ratios and would suspect that an aviation motor has an inherent advantage in a higher than normal SL 14.7 psia inlet pressure. But on second thought, maybe at 60,000' it has to have these multiple stages.
Thanks TEG (The Educational Guy)..fixed Mr. Shingen. |
Last edited by Orangeburst on Aug 10, 2010 - 05:02 AM; edited 2 times in total
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shingen
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Posted: Aug 10, 2010 - 04:38 AM
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Scorpion1alpha
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Posted: Aug 13, 2010 - 09:33 AM
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| At the suggestion of TEG, the topic is now split as its getting into engine technology. "Engine Technology" is the new split topic that is now located in the "Technology" forum. |
_________________ I'm watching...
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That_Engine_Guy
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Posted: Aug 13, 2010 - 03:15 PM
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Thanks...
TEG
(via Blackbury) |
_________________ [Airplanes are] near perfect, all they lack is the ability to forgive.
— Richard Collins
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