Forum: Air Power

mig-23mld wrote:

most MiG-29s that have faced F-15 lacked AWAC support and were built in the 1980s

AWACS is the offense's counter to the defense having GCI. Until recently, when an attacking force went over enemy territory, the attacking force had no assistance of radar control, while the defense had GCI. All AWACS did was to 'level the playing field'.

As for the MiG-29's performance in combat, the major design feature overlooked was the pilot training portion of opporational squadrons. The MiG-29 and Su-27 entered service during the budget crunch which led to the USSR's economic meltdown. So a bulk of Soviet/Russian AF pilots did not get the flight time they needed to remain proficient in ACM.

By my count, excluding the two MiG-29 fractricides -one IRAF of another MiG-29 and the one RuAF's fractricide of a Yak-40 transport nor counting the two Cessna 337s, I count the MiG-29s having twelve kills. Soviet/Russian MiG-29s shot down four Su-22Ms Afghan AF with R-60 missiles. Four Erethian AF MiG-29s shot down three Ethiopian MiG-21MF/BISs, one Erethian AF Su-25, and four RuAF MiG-29s shot down four Moldovan AF MiG-29s. An Erethian MiG-29B has an 'unconfirmed' kill of a Ethiopian AF Su-27S. The only non-MiG-29 fourth generation kill... if confirmed.

Unfortunately, the MiG-29 has suffered thirty-eight losses during aerial combat! Pilot training or, the lack of it is the main contributor to such a poor kill ratio of 12:38!!! It is a good fighter that will go down in history as just being mediocre.

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Its hard to compare neutered MiG-29 with other fighters. Neutered MiG-29's have a terrible exchange rate. It says nothing about the best variants. And we do know that better MiG-29's shoot down lesser MiG-29's.

Last edited by mig-23mld on Jul 07, 2010 - 01:10 AM; edited 2 times in total

Perhaps but as it will depend what account you read, the MiG-29 is said to have shot down at least one Tornado in 1991

One F-16 in 1999 and even an F-117

In all cases the explanations were the following:
The Tornado claimed was piloted by Lennox and Weeks, http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/vi ... lf.war.pdf but one webpage says it was shot down on 19 Janaury 1991, later other sources say Lennox`s Tornado was shot down on the 22 of January 1991 http://www.tornado-data.com/Production/ ... 0Data.pdf.
On 1991 there was a Tornado shot down on the 19th of January but it was shot down in the south of Iraq, Lennox and Weeks were KIA, soviet/Russian sources however do not give tha date, they say at least one tornado was shot down in northwest Iraq
http://aeroclub-minsk.by/index.php?opti ... ;Itemid=97
http://army.lv/?s=502&id=132&v=9

The veredict for this kill still hangs in the air

The F-16 in question is said to have been lost in an accident in the US the same day it is said it was shot down over Kosovo http://artofwar.ru/img/z/zampini_d_f/te ... ndex.shtml
http://www.f-16.net/news_article229.html this kill seems to be a fabrication i mean it seems it is only a fabrication and a fake kill.
The F-117 is said was hot down by a SAM however i would say originally this kill was given to a MiG-29 but now most Russian sorces give it to the SAM, it seems it has been settle.

[quote="avon1944"]

mig-23mld wrote:

most MiG-29s that have faced F-15 lacked AWAC support and were built in the 1980s

AWACS is the offense's counter to the defense having GCI. Until recently, when an attacking force went over enemy territory, the attacking force had no assistance of radar control, while the defense had GCI. All AWACS did was to 'level the playing field'.

As for the MiG-29's performance in combat, the major design feature overlooked was the pilot training portion of opporational squadrons. The MiG-29 and Su-27 entered service during the budget crunch which led to the USSR's economic meltdown. So a bulk of Soviet/Russian AF pilots did not get the flight time they needed to remain proficient in ACM.

By my count, excluding the two MiG-29 fractricides -one IRAF of another MiG-29 and the one RuAF's fractricide of a Yak-40 transport nor counting the two Cessna 337s, I count the MiG-29s having twelve kills. Soviet/Russian MiG-29s shot down four Su-22Ms Afghan AF with R-60 missiles. Four Erethian AF MiG-29s shot down three Ethiopian MiG-21MF/BISs, one Erethian AF Su-25, and four RuAF MiG-29s shot down four Moldovan AF MiG-29s. An Erethian MiG-29B has an 'unconfirmed' kill of a Ethiopian AF Su-27S. The only non-MiG-29 fourth generation kill... if confirmed.

Unfortunately, the MiG-29 has suffered thirty-eight losses during aerial combat! Pilot training or, the lack of it is the main contributor to such a poor kill ratio of 12:38!!! It is a good fighter that will go down in history as just being mediocre.[/url]

Last edited by mig-23mld on Jul 06, 2010 - 11:37 PM; edited 2 times in total

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uhhhhhhhmmmmm Sad

madrat wrote:

Its hard to compare neutered MiG-29 with other fighters. Neutered MiG-29's have a terrible exchange rate. It says nothing about the best variants.

The MiG-29 started off with a real deficit, the avionics package. Things are improving but, it has been playing 'catch-up' ever since. Add to that poor maintenance, pilot training and, threat is a formula for poor performance for that aircraft as a whole. There is no way compensate for these factors and all three of these areas will have to be addressed before the situation could possibly change.
In the only combat area in which things seemed to be "somewhat' even, is the conflict between Erethia against Ethiopia. In that conflict (as I stated before), an Ethiopian AF Su-27S has one confirmed kill claim against an Erethian MiG-29 and, five unconfirmed Su-27S kill claims against MiG-29s. The Erethian AF, one MiG-29B has an unconfirmed kill claim against an Ethiopian Su-27S, three confirmed kills against MiG-21MFs and, one confirmed kill claim against an Su-25. Both sides have hired mercenary fighter pilots!

mig-23mld wrote:

Perhaps but as it will depend what account you read, the MiG-29 is said to have shot down at least one Tornado in 1991
One F-16 in 1999 and even an F-117

Exactly the point, the Russian AF upper level officers made the statements that the F-117 was shot down by a MiG-29. The commander -Col. Dragan Stankovic of the 250th Rocket Brigade of the Yugoslav AD claims credit. Several other command level officers confirms his statement. The same goes for the kill claims during PGW#1, the Iraqi AF made NO formal claims against any Coalition aircraft. Others (outside the IrAF) speaking made such claims. In fact the F/A-18C shot down on the first night of PGW#1 was not claimed by the Iraqi AF until years later, after the USAF and USN admitted the loss of the F/A-18C was killed by a MiG-25PD. The loss was never denied by the US Military as far as the pilot was missing and the plane lost.
Several claims made by the Iraqi AF after the Six Day War against the Israeli AF fighters but, the IrAF was able to show aircraft wreckage sights! Many claims by the Syrian AF against the Israeli AF fighters, yet are not able to produce a wreckage sight... even though the aerial combat takes place outside the Israeli borders!

History is full of different versions for the same event for example if you watch this russian program they say the F-117 was shot down by a MiG-29
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp07sHx9WB4 of course today it is more widely accepted a SAM shot it down, but to say there is always one account is kind of irrealistic, Russian books and magazines have different versions that you should at least read, so even you have a few pictures or videos the other side has other pictures and versions, some versions are more easy to debunk, but others are not as easy, the MiG-29 has been claimed with more kills, are they true? well many things will depend what you want to believe.

avon1944 wrote:

madrat wrote:

Its hard to compare neutered MiG-29 with other fighters. Neutered MiG-29's have a terrible exchange rate. It says nothing about the best variants.

The MiG-29 started off with a real deficit, the avionics package. Things are improving but, it has been playing 'catch-up' ever since. Add to that poor maintenance, pilot training and, threat is a formula for poor performance for that aircraft as a whole. There is no way compensate for these factors and all three of these areas will have to be addressed before the situation could possibly change.
In the only combat area in which things seemed to be "somewhat' even, is the conflict between Erethia against Ethiopia. In that conflict (as I stated before), an Ethiopian AF Su-27S has one confirmed kill claim against an Erethian MiG-29 and, five unconfirmed Su-27S kill claims against MiG-29s. The Erethian AF, one MiG-29B has an unconfirmed kill claim against an Ethiopian Su-27S, three confirmed kills against MiG-21MFs and, one confirmed kill claim against an Su-25. Both sides have hired mercenary fighter pilots!

mig-23mld wrote:

Perhaps but as it will depend what account you read, the MiG-29 is said to have shot down at least one Tornado in 1991
One F-16 in 1999 and even an F-117

Exactly the point, the Russian AF upper level officers made the statements that the F-117 was shot down by a MiG-29. The commander -Col. Dragan Stankovic of the 250th Rocket Brigade of the Yugoslav AD claims credit. Several other command level officers confirms his statement. The same goes for the kill claims during PGW#1, the Iraqi AF made NO formal claims against any Coalition aircraft. Others (outside the IrAF) speaking made such claims. In fact the F/A-18C shot down on the first night of PGW#1 was not claimed by the Iraqi AF until years later, after the USAF and USN admitted the loss of the F/A-18C was killed by a MiG-25PD. The loss was never denied by the US Military as far as the pilot was missing and the plane lost.
Several claims made by the Iraqi AF after the Six Day War against the Israeli AF fighters but, the IrAF was able to show aircraft wreckage sights! Many claims by the Syrian AF against the Israeli AF fighters, yet are not able to produce a wreckage sight... even though the aerial combat takes place outside the Israeli borders!

mig-23mld wrote:

History is full of different versions for the same event for example if you watch this russian program they say the F-117 was shot down by a MiG-29

The thread is F-15C vs MiG-29.

So what if the MiG was able to down an F-117?
The 117 has no self defense,
no supersonic capability, and
limited maneuverability.

It's like bragging that you beat up your little sister! haha
fisk

Mr. MLD has been banned from the other places he posts and has to come in here now and post Russian propaganda to try and stick up for garbage equipment like the MiG-29. What you have to realize is that people who don't grow up in free countries have little ability to judge the quality of info. sources. Add in bias towards one side's equipment and you get the trash posted above. The facts are available in how many other threads on the MiG-29? Let's review:

1. No FCS so the pilot workload is higher
2. Poor ergonomics including a clock that the pilot has to use to work out when his missile has F poled. Western fighters had the computer do it and the HUD told them when
3. Short range
4. Less cockpit vision than opponents
5. Smoky engines are a wonderful IFF system
Overall a one trick pony that requires a lavishly funded state with massive GCI support so it can disrupt attacks over its own territory. Note that any Western 4th is designed for more. The whole argument is trash anyway because what does it matter if the MiG has shot down 0 or half a dozen? It's been a loser because its design is a loser outside of the above context.

I will answer simple, if you are a true historian you will listen both sides or even all the versions, if you are truely free, you are not afraid of reviewing both sides, because you need impartiality, as a historian analyse a source means more than saying first impressions, you analysis barely will see that the AA-10 used by MiG-29A was not an AIM-120 equivalent tha the early MiG-29A was designed as a fighter equivalent to early F-16s armed with only AIM-9s or F-18s with AIM-7s, however the Russians had R-77s and R-74s, the Russians trained MiG-29s versus Su-27s in Marii with competent pilots, the MiG-29A never was designed as a long range fighter niether multirole, the MiG-29M was the first MiG-29 truely designed with avionics capable to take on F-16s and F-18C in the 1980s in BVR and multirole with modern avionics. the MiG-29A used by non soviet air forces were downgraded versions, at this moment only a handful of MiG-29SMTs and MiG-29K are flying most MiG-29 in the world are As built in the 1980s, so far i can say to you this i won`t answer you any more due to your unrespectful attitude but surf the internet and go to Russian forums and you will find really good information, if you do not like it it is okay you can stick to what ever version you like but in this world not every one thinks the same

shingen wrote:

Mr. MLD has been banned from the other places he posts and has to come in here now and post Russian propaganda to try and stick up for garbage equipment like the MiG-29. What you have to realize is that people who don't grow up in free countries have little ability to judge the quality of info. sources. Add in bias towards one side's equipment and you get the trash posted above. The facts are available in how many other threads on the MiG-29? Let's review:

1. No FCS so the pilot workload is higher
2. Poor ergonomics including a clock that the pilot has to use to work out when his missile has F poled. Western fighters had the computer do it and the HUD told them when
3. Short range
4. Less cockpit vision than opponents
5. Smoky engines are a wonderful IFF system
Overall a one trick pony that requires a lavishly funded state with massive GCI support so it can disrupt attacks over its own territory. Note that any Western 4th is designed for more. The whole argument is trash anyway because what does it matter if the MiG has shot down 0 or half a dozen? It's been a loser because its design is a loser outside of the above context.

See the whole post in context, i said there are many versions most modern Russian historians today say the F-117 was shot down by a SAM, however they see weaknesses in the F-117 in the fact it was scorted by F-15s and used ECM, in fact one Serbian MiG-29 was shot down very close to an F-117, the pilot of the F-117 even saw the missiles heading towards the MiG-29just above his cockpit

fiskerwad wrote:

mig-23mld wrote:

History is full of different versions for the same event for example if you watch this russian program they say the F-117 was shot down by a MiG-29

The thread is F-15C vs MiG-29.

So what if the MiG was able to down an F-117?
The 117 has no self defense,
no supersonic capability, and
limited maneuverability.

It's like bragging that you beat up your little sister! haha
fisk

"at this moment only a handful of MiG-29SMTs and MiG-29K are flying most MiG-29 in the world are As built in the 1980s"

Thanks for making my point for me. I suggest you confine yourself to the Russian forums where your garbage will pass unchallenged.

The rumor has it that in mock dogfights the US pilots with MIG-29's have beaten US-Pilots flying F-15,F-16.

The MiG-29 is a superior performer to all 3rd-Generation US fighters on paper. The scoreboards in Kosovo and Middle East tell a different story.

which mig-29 and f-15, which airforce and what pilot

I have no doubt US F-15's are superior to Mig-29's in most areas, notably avionics/pilot training and of course the folk that keep 'em flying. I feel pretty bad for MIG as a design bureau. I think under the circumstances, they turned out some wonderful pieces of engineering. Look at the Mig-25. Many will scoff, but the reality is that with a decent pilot it put up a good fight in Desert Storm - even against the very aircraft designed to kill it, designed a generation later (F-15).

Now let's say they turned out a Mach 3 machine like the Blackbird. Roll that out to Soviet pilots, maintainers and the industrial base designed to build it en mass at the time. Would have sat there on the tarmac, goin' nowhere. The irony of it all, yes?

They did OK. Unfortunately, 2nd place = dead in this profession. Something tells me that in the real world where all of these valid points are being made about AWACS, training etc, even Mikoyan would think twice before putting his kid in a Mig-29 vs. an F-15....

Forum: Air Power

Air to Air Combat F-15C Eagle v.s. MiG-29 Fulcrum