Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Reading through some accounts and Aviation Week articles, there is veiled reference to the F-22's ability to "fry/spoof" enemy aircraft from afar..

Does anyone have any insight as to what this might be?

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mixelflick wrote:

Reading through some accounts and Aviation Week articles, there is veiled reference to the F-22's ability to "fry/spoof" enemy aircraft from afar..

Does anyone have any insight as to what this might be?

I'm guessing the electronic attack capabilities of the APG-77 radar set are what's being talked about.
Don't suppose you have a linky to the article?

Does anyone have definitive proof it can do the frying of electronics in its current implementation? That would have to be some incredible electrical capacitance to put out that much energy. I was under the mistaken understanding that AESA is limited by trivial things like physics.

madrat wrote:

Does anyone have definitive proof it can do the frying of electronics in its current implementation? That would have to be some incredible electrical capacitance to put out that much energy. I was under the mistaken understanding that AESA is limited by trivial things like physics.

Please don't expect test results for radar performance to be posted here.
Rolling Eyes

fisk

madrat wrote:

Does anyone have definitive proof it can do the frying of electronics in its current implementation? That would have to be some incredible electrical capacitance to put out that much energy. I was under the mistaken understanding that AESA is limited by trivial things like physics.

No idea about 'frying' an opponent in the physical sense of the word as i'm not going to pretend to know enough about that, but, from what can be ascertained from public domain sources it would certainly seem that AESA sets that are capbale of electronic attack can really ruin an opponents day...
Typing "AESA electronic attack" on google brings up a few public domain pieces on the subject. The Aviation Weeks March 28th 2010 article here mentions "cyber-invasion" and "cyber attack" which I presume to mean ruining your opponents electronic networks and C4 systems:

http://m.aviationweek.com/aw/mstory.do? ... k%20System

It is fascinating even though the complexities of it all go right over my head! Wink

Here is the original article in AW&ST: [Link pending approval];id=[Link pending approval]

And here is another program: Counter-electronics High power microwave Advanced Missile Project (CHAMP)

[Link pending approval];plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A347da0db-c427-4928-85ff-da01662523fe

[Link pending approval];plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A1f5cbc8c-88b1-4e40-abbe-a7791039c7eb&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

First 2 links were about different concepts (IMHO)
- 1. 'cyber attack' scramble enemey networks by deluging them with random data. AESA might be a component of that.
-2. Fry enemy electronics with huge electronic pulses. A BAE concept that could translate to Gen 5 fighters.

No real mention of links to the F-22 that I could see.

Just an opinion -- not being critical

Point taken Ford2go so I did a bit more hunting on Google.

First up is this article:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 0909p2.xml

Whilst it isn't 'frying the enemy' I think this cetainly counts. The first papragraph is there for context, the second is is the really interesting one..
QUOTE:

"Ranges of the new lines of AESA radars are classified. But they are estimated at about 90 mi. for the smallest (aimed at the F-16 radar-upgrade market). The F/A-18E/F and F-35 (with radar ranges of 100 mi.) are followed by the F-22 (110-115-mi.). The largest is carried by the upgraded F-15Cs and Es (125 mi.). By comparison, the range for a mechanically scanned, F-15C radar is 56 mi. according to Russian air force intelligence. U.S. aerospace officials agree that an AESA radar "at least doubles" the range over standard military radars.

When coupled with the electronic techniques generator in an aircraft, the radar can project jamming, false targets and other false information into enemy sensors. Ranges for electronic attack equal the AESA radar plus that of the enemy radar. That could allow electronic attack at ranges of 150 mi. or more. The ability to pick out small targets at a long distance also lets AESA-equipped aircraft find and attack cruise missiles, stealth aircraft and small UAVs."

PAy special attention to this sentence --- "the radar can project jamming, false targets and other false information into enemy sensors" --- Sounds like enough to very likely ruin someones day I would think.

This next link has even more about it including using the AESA to actually wreck enemy systems, a quick piece of it reads, no wait it doesn't because I can't copy and paste from a PDF file in 'Foxit Reader' or at least I don't know how to anyway so you'll have to have a gander at it yourself, it's quite eye opening and does mention destructive non kinetic attack of radar weapons, which certainly sounds like what we are discussing. Here is the link:

www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images/articleim ... 06_EOE.pdf

There is no doubt alot more on the net to find and digest but today I simply don't have the time right now. Well one more minute won't hurt so I found this from Flight International dated 2007 titled "Electronic attack role next upgrade for F-22A Raptor radar" apolagies if it has already been linked but it says:

"The USA is moving to exploit its lead in AESA technology, and the F-22's Northrop Grumman APG-77(V)1 radar is scheduled to get an electronic attack capability as part of the Increment 3.2 upgrade to be funded from fiscal year 2012. An "in-band" electronic attack capability for the Raytheon APG-79 AESA in US Navy Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets is to be funded from FY2008.
Raytheon says its AESA upgrade for the Boeing F-15 has already demonstrated in-band electronic attack capability in USAF flight tests"

Here is a link to where I found the article but the article should still be online i'm sure:
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/vie ... 503#p10719

Thank you for that very well researched and articulated analysis. And yes, this is what was sticking in my head when I wrote the original post:

"When coupled with the electronic techniques generator in an aircraft, the radar can project jamming, false targets and other false information into enemy sensors. Ranges for electronic attack equal the AESA radar plus that of the enemy radar. That could allow electronic attack at ranges of 150 mi. or more".

I do understand, of course, that nothing classified was going to be offered in response. Apologize if it came across any other way. The topic is very intriguing because while the airframe is static and the engines/weapons have room for upgrading, I saw the EW capabilities as much more open to enhancement in terms of keeping the Raptor ahead of the curve...

It looks like the future strategy is to have F-15C Golden Eagle paint targets for the F-22 and the latter will deliver the kills. The F-15C will also act as the active element in detecting threats for the F-22 while cruise missiles whiz over the target area delivering RF jamming. It doesn't look like the F-22's ability to fry the enemy's emitters are all that much of a focus in the future.

madrat wrote:

It doesn't look like the F-22's ability to fry the enemy's emitters are all that much of a focus in the future.

Doesn't it? Read this sentence again and tell me it is not considered a focus of the future:
"The USA is moving to exploit its lead in AESA technology, and the F-22's Northrop Grumman APG-77(V)1 radar is scheduled to get an electronic attack capability as part of the Increment 3.2 upgrade to be funded from fiscal year 2012.

Had it said 2025 I'd be inclined to agree with you, but funding starting in just 2012 sure sound like it's a "focus of the future" to me.

I'm not really sure why you refer to it as being able to, quote "fry the enemy's emitters" either as it certainly seems there is plenty more to EA than 'frying' an enemy as we can see by the links in this thread, certainly the companies that make EA capable radar sets the and USAF think so anyway.

Unless they have some kind of magic the AESA transmitters can only generate signal from one power source. So you're either theoretically splitting up the energy output for EW on multiple transmitters or putting all your eggs into one basket for a brute force attack. Apparently the current AESA radars only transmit one module at a time, so using it for some EW roles and search simultaneously may be a feat for the future.

madrat wrote:

Unless they have some kind of magic the AESA transmitters can only generate signal from one power source. So you're either theoretically splitting up the energy output for EW on multiple transmitters or putting all your eggs into one basket for a brute force attack. Apparently the current AESA radars only transmit one module at a time, so using it for some EW roles and search simultaneously may be a feat for the future.

Where are you getting that info? Each module has its own power source, and can be used as multiple subarrays, in addition to a single array. Additionally modes can be switched at a rate so as to appear transparent to the pilot, in terms of which function is currently occuring(i.e. radar, datalink, EA, comms, etc..).

wrightwing wrote:

Where are you getting that info?

I'd love to know that too...

Was it from the 'Over G Times'? Laughing

(not aiming that snarky joke at you madrat, its just something I and i'm sure others have noticed that is rather comical to say the least!)

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Raptor's EW capabilities?