Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Salute!

Problem with the Phantom in that picture is that it couldn't turn any tighter to get a 'winder shot, and a few seconds later the Viper prototype could.

As we discussd at length on the "sustained turn" thread, we have to look at the total energy diagram. There's a time to keep the high - e turn going, and a time to yank and stall out when getting a fall-away-jump shot with a heater.

I can tell you that no fighter pilot will continue in a great turn like we see in that photo if the other guy is starting to get within the launch envelope of a heater or radar missile. Hell, you can go more vertical, for one idea.

So let's reverse the picture so the Phantom is in front and starts turning first. Duhhhhhh. about two or three seconds later the Viper prototype is firmly in the saddle and is easing off the turn to sweeten up the shot.

As much as I love the Viper and the SLUF, we have to move on. The logistics for the old planes is a big problem. I could have a thousand Phantoms but would lose the war if I can't keep a few dozen working for the 4th, 5th or 6th hour of the war. meanwhile, I can turn a single squadron of Vipers over and over. Let's figure about 50 to 60 sorties in the first 12 hours. Back in the 80's, we had squadrons cranking out 100 sorties per day during an ORI.

I look back and can't think of any great plane that I flew or flew against that is worth extraordinary efforts to keep flying after 30 or 40 years. Hell, a lot of the sub-contractors are outta business. So are you willing to have a start-up small business try to make all the pissant components? I don't think so. The simple planes can be developed more with respect to avionics and motors. But they won't be competitive versus the threat planes we see nowadays.

Gums sends ...

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Well said Gums. As I've said many times, I'm the son and nephew of a couple of Crew Dawgs who busted several knuckles bending wrenches on the F-4. It was a bird that I grew up with, and will always have respect for, but it had its day. Hell, its replacements will be knocking on the door to retirement before too much longer.

For the U.S., the Rhino is doing the best job that it can be doing right now...serving as an FSAT, so our guys can ops test our AA weapons. The QRF-4Cs are now on deck. They should close out the Phantom FSAT fleet. Then onto the Blk. 15 Vipers...

I think the dude who posted this thread just wanted to talk about putting a better engines in the old bird instead of talking about whether it was a good idea or relevant. Can it be done? What would it do for the aircraft? Those are the questions I think he wanted to talk about.

discofishing wrote:

I think the dude who posted this thread just wanted to talk about putting a better engines in the old bird instead of talking about whether it was a good idea or relevant. Can it be done? What would it do for the aircraft? Those are the questions I think he wanted to talk about.

Good one! How's this?

Yes, it's been done and it was good. Boeing and the Israel AF both considered a derivative a 70% common derivative of the F-100, the PW1120, as a Phantom upgrade engine. It made 20,600 lbs of thrust, weighed 2893 lbs (compared to 3835 lbs for the J79), was about 45 inches shorter, and achieved a t/w ratio of 7.1 compared to 4.7 for the J79. Cruise specific fuel consumption at M 0.85 and 36,000 feet was 0.90 lb/hr/lb compared to 0.95 lb/hr/lb for the J79. Its mass air flow requirements, at 178 lbs./sec, remained similar to the J79. The PW1120’s care-free operations, rapid spool up and lack of visible smoke were other advantages as was the massive improvement in reliability and maintenance costs over the J79. In 1983 dollars, a pair of PW 1120 cost $4.6 million or $5.53 million when installed by Boeing.

At combat weight the F-4/PW1120 had a t/w ratio just a bit over one compared to about .85 for F-4/J79. In the air-to-air mission and with its new CFT attached, it had a loiter time of 3h 45min compared to 2h 42 min for the F-4/J79. Air-to-air mission radius, including a few turns at full power increased to 811 miles compared to 576 miles for the F-4/J79.

F-4/PW1120 take-off run with three bags of gas was reduced by 20% from 3300 ft to 2600 ft. Turn radius decreased by 11% at M 0.9/10,000 feet while max speed went up 13% at 30,000 feet. The F-4/PW1120 accelerated from M 0.6 to 1.2 at 20,000 feet some 27% faster than F-4/J79, 75% faster than the Mig-21 and 37% faster than the Mig-23.

In the ground attack role, F-4/PW1120 armed with two bags and 18 Mk82s, topped out 50 kts faster at low level than F-4/J79 or it could maintain M 0.89 with those 18 Mk 82s versus 10 Mk 82s for the F-4/J79.

I know you don’t want to hear about the money but a re-engined and modernized Phantom was projected by the Air Force to cost around $17 million/aircraft (although Boeing claimed they could do it for around $9 million). You could buy a brand new F-16 at that time for about $13 million.

With all due respect, I would forward the proposition that the F-16 today IS the F-4 we are pontificating on, in truth?? Better to debate whether to re-engine and re-radar the F-16 of today? Thumb

Are there any pictures of this upgraded Phantom floating around the internet with CFTs and new engines? There are several countries that want to keep flying the Phantom for many more years. I figured an off-the-shelf engine like the F404 or F414 would be better to put in an F-4. You wouldn't have to develop a new engine, just find a way to mount it to the airframe. The F-14 went this route going from TF30s to F110s. F-15s and F-16s can now be fitted with the same engine. The F414 would be perfect for the Phantom at least dimension and weight-wise.

Geogen,
Yeah it is more relevant to argue this point with the F-16. I've read that a lot of F-16As were retired by the USAF long before they needed to be. I could see the USAF getting a good deal on upgrading those birds with MLU and maybe the SABR. I've also read that the USAF has already selected airframes at the boneyard for this purpose. USAF F-16AMs would be a great air defense asset for the guard units. As for the current F-16Cs, they could use some upgrading as well. The SABR system would be where I'd start.

geogen wrote:

With all due respect, I would forward the proposition that the F-16 today IS the F-4 we are pontificating on, in truth?? Better to debate whether to re-engine and re-radar the F-16 of today? Thumb

Ah, come on, don't rain on our parade. Join in! Besides, considering this is the Cold War forum, and considering that the OP (discofishing) referenced existing F-4 operator such as Japan, Germany, and Turkey, and considering that the majority of the responses here have rather pointed out the infeasibility of such an undertaking, I thought maybe we could get some slack?

Disco
No photos with the CFTs because, to the best of my knowledge, it was never flown with them. With apologies for the crappy quality, all I have are these line drawings. The bottom view comes from the brochure. The PW1120 would have powered both the Lavi and the upgraded Phantom.

Super Phantom without CFT.

Now if they could just re-engine the old F-4 drivers.

OL

Thanks for the pics, they are pretty cool!

I may be wrong but I thought the F404/414 was dimensionally smaller and shorter than the J79 and so wouldn't fit in the F-4.

I figure that would be a good thing. Would give more space to mechanics and might make engine R/R easier.

Is the Rhino a better bomb-truck than the Viper? Might be worth keeping around if you can't afford the strike eagle.

henshao wrote:

Is the Rhino a better bomb-truck than the Viper? Might be worth keeping around if you can't afford the strike eagle.

Hell, bring the F-111 back before the F-4 if you can't afford the Strike Eagle!

The anteater is a hell of a jet! But I meant, "we have all these Phantoms sitting around, not doing anything, might as well make them (more) dangerous." The (only) thing the F-4 can do, that the 111 can't do, is escort itself. A little important.

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Keeping the F-4 for a little while longer...