Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Men, this is incredible! I cant believe these people statements (Dr Carlo Kopp, Peter Goon). Ok, can someone with modern aerial combat knowlege demonstrates the contrary of this "facts" , please???

1) Analysis of PAK-FA prototype airframe aerodynamic features shows a design which is superior to all Western equivalents, providing ‘extreme agility’, superior to that of the Su-35S, through much of the flight envelope.

2) The available evidence demonstrates at this time that a mature production PAK-FA design..., and will outperform the F-22A Raptor aerodynamically and kinematically.

3) While the PAK-FA firmly qualifies as a fifth generation design, it has two further attributes absent in the extant F-22 design. The first is extreme agility, resulting from advanced aerodynamic design, exceptional thrust/weight ratio performance and three dimensional thrust vectoring integrated with an advanced digital flight control system. The second attribute is exceptional combat persistence, the result of a 25,000 lb internal fuel load. The internal and external weapon payload are likely to be somewhat larger, though comparable to those of the F-22A.

F-16.net Sponsor

So far only they say it is a 'technology demonstrator'

Doesn't appear to be very stealthy, still lots of flat/square lines along the body.

Looking at the photos given online and the video; the inlets appear horrible for RCS. They still have splitter-plates/diverters at the top edges.

http://en.rian.ru/video/20100129/157716554.html

"testing is to last another 5 to 6 years" as the video says? Good luck with that guys.

When they build more than 5 of them with the advertised avionics and advanced engines that aren't 'rehashed' AL31s, I'll take it seriously.

TEG

haha i bet a f-15C would kick its a$$ with out a problem.. let alone a f-22.. Laughing

Russia is funny that plane is hideous...

They've already moved the service date from 2013 to 2015 since that thing flew.

Quotes taken form APA...

Quote:

Disclosures indicate that the avionic suite and systems fit will be derived from the Su-35S design, with the important difference in the use of an very high power-aperture product X-band multimode primary AESA radar. Five AESA apertures are intended for production PAK-FA aircraft. The highly integrated avionic suite is intended to provide similar data fusion and networking capabilities to the F-22A Raptor.

Okay, so let's see. The full capabilities of the F-22A avionics have NEVER been made public. Yet somehow the APA in it's infinite wisdom(and others) is able to discern that the unknown PAK FA avionics suite designed by a nation that demonstrated absolute incompetence in battle management during the 2008 Georgia war, has NEVER deployed an operation AESA on a fighter and only by highly sanitized press releases is declaring authoritatively that the PAK FA will rival the Raptor in this domain. Yeah, okay, here is more...

Quote:

The available evidence demonstrates at this time that a mature production PAK-FA design has the potential to compete with the F-22A Raptor in VLO performance from key aspects, and will outperform the F-22A Raptor aerodynamically and kinematically. Therefore, from a technological strategy perspective, the PAK-FA renders all legacy US fighter aircraft, and the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, strategically irrelevant and non-viable after the PAK-FA achieves IOC in 2015.

What evidence? Certainly not from this prototype. Out perform Raptor and we can see Flanker engines glued onto it? Yeah, sure. Lets suppose for sake of argument that's true in a world where crack cocaine smoking is legal...

Quote:

Detailed strategic analysis indicates that the only viable strategic survival strategy now remaining for the United States is to terminate the Joint Strike Fighter program immediately, redirect freed funding to further develop the F-22 Raptor, and employ variants of the F-22 aircraft as the primary fighter aircraft for all United States and Allied TACAIR needs.

"Detailed strategic analysis"...lol. WTF? What detailed analysis? Okay, lets give them a pass for a second. SO I guess we gotta terminate the F-35, all our obviously outclassed F-teens and guess what. BUY MORE F-22's they just finished telling you that PAK FA outclasses...LMAO. YOu have to wonder does anyone actually proof read anything on that website! Never mind the fact that F-22 cannot handle all TACAIR needs!

What utter incompetence. I hope this simple to debunk APA nonsense shows all the quality of an APA analysis or rather the lack thereof. Never reference AOA if the intent is to be taken seriously...

-DA

Parting thought. Remember the Mig-25...

-DA

I'm thinking on one hand that an APA parody web site could be something special and on the other hand i'm thinking APA have already done it for us... Wink

Funny. Back in the reality-based community, here's an article by a Russian academic about the state of Russian R&D:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/a ... 99494.html

calel wrote:

I cant believe these people statements (Dr Carlo Kopp, Peter Goon).

You could've stopped right there, and that would've mitigated your concerns.

The 2 things you need to consider whenever you see fanciful claims are that no one who's making comparisons of aircraft knows either

A- what the true capabilities are of the F-22

or

B- what the true capabilities of the PAK FA will be, once it's a mature system.

Additionally, they have no idea what the capabilities of the F-22 will be, by the time the PAK FA is a mature system(i.e. it will undergo upgrades to add new capabilities as time passes).

This is a classic example of the Russian mindset vs the American. We here in America DO NOT want the true capabilities of our aircraft known and well keep it secret for years. On the other hand Russia boasts and brags about the technological capabilities of their aircraft/missiles/avionics to try and boost foreign sales and intimidate their adversaries. I just think its funny how silly, ignorant people bite into it and anyone with an inkling of smarts who's looked at history and actually done their research would see that the Russian's don't make quality stuff, its about the quantity.
With that said I agree with most people on here, I find it very unlikely that the PAK-FA will come close to the Raptor...they don't even have a functioning, IOC AESA radar yet! (Something we've had for years) and their Active missiles are still not on par with our AMRAAM.
So final analysis...its a good read if you want to have a good laugh and thats about it...it's too bad the author can't use all his numerous degree's for something actually worth reading.

And that's one man's opinion.

carlo kopp is all but serious,if we do believe all what he´s claiming,Russian stuff is far more better and complexier than western/US one!
may be he´s mad at US because australians were refused access to F22 Doh

delta-shred, don't take it personally, please.
What you wrote is not 100% correct. From history, T-34 (and in some aspects KV-1) was match and excel only in 1943, and is just an example.

Btw, this is not the place to discuss about T-34 ....

...

What it said about PAK-FA sound like propaganda, IMHO. You are correct, they want to boost ... sales and moral. And are premature on that, PAK-FA dosn't have the final engines, nor the radar ...

DarthAmerica wrote:

Parting thought. Remember the Mig-25...

-DA

You're right DA, this is a perfect example. I'm old enough to remember the hype that surrounded this plane until Belenko 'gave' us one revealing that the supposed greatest, most capable aircraft, was junk. The hype from this plane had the U.S. scrambling. History is repeating itself. Fortunately, most people can see through the Propaganda/hype/bravado that comes with the T-50.

darkvarkguy wrote:

DarthAmerica wrote:

Parting thought. Remember the Mig-25...

-DA

You're right DA, this is a perfect example. I'm old enough to remember the hype that surrounded this plane until Belenko 'gave' us one revealing that the supposed greatest, most capable aircraft, was junk. The hype from this plane had the U.S. scrambling. History is repeating itself. Fortunately, most people can see through the Propaganda/hype/bravado that comes with the T-50.

Well I wont go so far as to call the Foxbat(Firefox... Wink

) junk. I have a lot of respect for my Russian counterparts. Those sorties over the Middle East where the IDF/AF took shots at Mig-25s and could not effectively engage them sure shook things up. Rather, the Mig-25 ended up a highly specialized aircraft VERY GOOD at it's limited roles of interception and recon. But ubber fighter it was not. And it achieved it's design goals in very Russian ways. Crude brute force and elegant Russian simplicity. I think PAK FA will turn out to be the same way of course in a more general purpose Mig-29/Su-27 way. Just my 0.02 cents.

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

Parting thought. Remember the Mig-25...

-DA

Or the much vaunted and frequently shot down MiG-29...

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 Outmatched?