Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

edit. Original post was political and out of topic. Sorry.

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Greetings again, npeterman:

Suppose for a moment that we accept your idea to engineer down the F-22 to an exportable version or variant. For the sake of protecting sensitive tech, let’s tamper-proof it. Ultimately, don’t you essentially wind up with an………………………F-35? Isn’t this an exercise in reinventing a wheel that’s already in development? Why would we spend additional bucks to produce something that’s already being done? Why do we need to produce yet another F-35 that competes for exports with the…………..F-35?

I just don’t get it. Please help me understand!

USMilFan

I guess I look at this in two different pieces. The Secretary of Defense is required to at least evaluate the possibility of an exportable F-22, in whatever form that may take. I also know that at one point in time, several nations were desiring Raptor exports. I am unsure if they felt that they would get the whole package in such a deal, but there was never any way that would have happened. So with that in mind, that, I guess, is its reason "to be"

As far as the why, I am unsure? It seems like you would be getting the F-35 in a larger box. However, the Raptor is certainly impressive, and by virtue of its larger size may offer advantages in terms of range. Why someone would want an F-35 in an F-22's body is beyond me. Many nations bought what were essentially Mig-21s in MiG-23's bodies, and MiG-23s in Mig-29's bodies. If it worked for Mikoyan, why not for Lockheed? Whistle

Anyhow, like I said, I'm just talking hypotheticals here. Gates could come back with a one line report that says:
"The F-22 is not, and never shall be exportable"
and that would be that.

NKDP

npeterman18 wrote:

"The F-22 is not, and never shall be exportable"

Hello, npeterman:

Thank you for replying.

OK, I would be satisfied with the above report from Gates. Perhaps he might also add: “For those who wish to export or import the F-22, we are currently developing it. We call it the F-35.”

Quote:

Suppose for a moment that we accept your...F-22... exportable version or variant.... let’s tamper-proof it. Ultimately, don’t you essentially wind up with an………………………F-35? Isn’t this an exercise in reinventing a wheel that’s already in development? Why would we spend additional bucks to produce something that’s already being done? Why do we need to produce yet another F-35 that competes for exports with the…………..F-35?

I just don’t get it. Please help me understand!

Ultimately, essentially, no... you still don't end up with an F-35. The F-22E would still be a wholly differently-capable system; the development of which at least one ally has in the past and others could in future, be willing to fund!

Thus, the export F-22 would have the higher performance, higher operating ceiling, obvious super-cruise advantage and most of all... better internal A2A carriage (e.g., 6+2). Yes, the block V F-35 is planned to fit 6 internal AMRAAM class, but this could be yrs after an exportable F-22 is ready for order.

So in essense, the mere 'bite' factor of a hypothetical Raptor-E's deterrence - being perceived as more 'Strategic' - could also positively 'force-multiply' each buy.

That's my view at least... to a rather softball-loaded question? Smile

USMilFan wrote:

Suppose for a moment that we accept your idea to engineer down the F-22 to an exportable version or variant. For the sake of protecting sensitive tech, let’s tamper-proof it. Ultimately, don’t you essentially wind up with an………………………F-35? Isn’t this an exercise in reinventing a wheel that’s already in development? Why would we spend additional bucks to produce something that’s already being done? Why do we need to produce yet another F-35 that competes for exports with the…………..F-35?

I just don’t get it. Please help me understand!

Your question wasn't directed at me but I'd like chime in. I doubt that there's a unitary reason that other countries would want the F-22. Israel might be most interested in its advanced ECCM/ESM abilities and its ability to conduct long distance, stealthy strike. Japan has said that supercruise is very important in supporting its ability to cover large distances (Japan has territorial claims over disputed small islands far from its southern most bases) and protect against cruise missile attack. Different countries would likely be willing to accept different compromises but I agree that the cost to customize a variant for each country would be extraordinary.

My worry is that the F-35 may not end up meeting different countries' needs anyways. I hope they have a great development year but my concern is that cycle of lower production <> higher costs is already starting. America's priorities should rightfully dominate since they are shouldering much of the development cost, but they might be willing to accept different compromises than their allies would prefer (e.g., timelines for integration of HOBS AAMs). In the end, each buyer might have to end up paying a large amount for customization.

geogen wrote:

the export F-22 would have the higher performance, higher operating ceiling, obvious super-cruise advantage and most of all... better internal A2A carriage...

So in essense, the mere 'bite' factor of a hypothetical Raptor-E's deterrence - being perceived as more 'Strategic' - could also positively 'force-multiply' each buy.

Greetings once again, geogen:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Of course, the statements above do not describe what I would qualify as an exportable product for the reasons stated earlier in this thread; thus, I’ll not repeat them here.

Again, I must assert that a substantially down-engineered F-22 does not materially differ from an F-35, except perhaps for ground-attack capabilities that surpass even those of the F-22 in current configuration.

Naturally, I’m greatly relieved to know that, for the moment at least, the US Govt agrees that the F-22 will not be exported, while the F-35, in contrast, is explicitly designed for export. I’m hopeful that the US will continue to keep its collective eye on the ball, softball-loaded or not. Smile

Greetings, psychmike:

Thanks for replying.

psychmike wrote:

I hope they have a great development year but my concern is that cycle of lower production <> higher costs is already starting.

Indeed, your sentiments above seem to be widely shared among many Americans as well as many allies and friends around the globe. While recent reports are discouraging, I remain hopeful that LM & the US Govt. can ultimately resolve remaining cost & schedule issues in ways that lead to a reasonably affordable & timely result. If not, the US & allies could be in for an extremely rough ride for decades to come!

psychmike wrote:

My worry is that the F-35 may not end up meeting different countries' needs anyways.

Yes, quite naturally, virtually everyone wishes for something more capable than potential adversaries may possess. If the F-35 doesn’t ultimately meet the needs of the US & its partner nations, I fear that any realistic alternatives may end up being vastly more costly than heretofore imagined or contemplated. In that case, the implications for the US military & allied militaries are clear enough.

Ultimately, the F-35 MUST succeed, or else; I fully agree.

Quote:

If the F-35 doesn’t ultimately meet the needs of the US & its partner nations, I fear that any realistic alternatives may end up being vastly more costly than heretofore imagined or contemplated.

I'll comment on this.

There is an alternative should the F-35 fails (although I don't see that happening). For the USAF, it's the latest block Vipers. Modified Blk 60s to USAF standards would be an outstanding alternative; much of the tech is developed and proven so costs would be minimal than to start a brand-new design.

For foreign countires, they have quite a few choices to choose from should they somehow determine the F-35 fails to meet their requirements or the programs fails.

Export F-22? Not going there. It gets tiring beating a dead horse.

Quote:

There is an alternative should the F-35 fails (although I don't see that happening). For the USAF, it's the latest block Vipers. Modified Blk 60s to USAF standards would be an outstanding alternative; much of the tech is developed and proven so costs would be minimal than to start a brand-new design.

On the topic of Blk 60 vipers built to a USAF standard, I was curious if any of the technology in said Blk 60s are UAE specific, and thus could not be fitted to a US example. (along the lines of Israeli equptment in the F-16I/F-15I variants)

And, as far as procuremnet is concerned, I have never truly understood why Blk 60 aircraft have not been purchased, at least as a stop gap until the F-35 reaches widespread service. It seems like most, if not all of the infrastructure to support it exists, and that it could be easily "gifted" to the guard once the Lightning becomes more widely available. I am sure this is another of the above mentioned "dead horses" that you all dread beating, but I guess I still do not understand the logic behind putting all of you eggs in one basket Shrug

However, should the F-35 program come together as nicely as it is suposed to, and as I hope it shall, then all of this talk is truly pointless I guess. Hopefully we will see a very rapid flight test program, a long production run, and many different roundels on F-35s, and not F-22s, in the near future!

Quote:

On the topic of Blk 60 vipers built to a USAF standard, I was curious if any of the technology in said Blk 60s are UAE specific, and thus could not be fitted to a US example. (along the lines of Israeli equptment in the F-16I/F-15I variants)

Yes, there are tech on it that are built to UAE's specs and requirements and thus unique only to them. A speculative USAF Blk 60 would be equipped and optimized to allow it to operate and fight according to USAF doctorine and tactics which includes operating with the usual coalition partners.

Quote:

And, as far as procuremnet is concerned, I have never truly understood why Blk 60 aircraft have not been purchased, at least as a stop gap until the F-35 reaches widespread service. It seems like most, if not all of the infrastructure to support it exists, and that it could be easily "gifted" to the guard once the Lightning becomes more widely available. I am sure this is another of the above mentioned "dead horses" that you all dread beating, but I guess I still do not understand the logic behind putting all of you eggs in one basket

$$$. In a (more) perfect world, yes, we would be replacing those older block Vipers with newer ones. But, since this is a resource limited world, leadership has decided that it's better to fund the program that will eventually (someday) replace the Vipers, Harriers Hornets and A-10s.

If only as much support had been given to the F-22 program...

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 for export?